Curious: Why chisel grind?

S

Steelwolf

Joined
Jul 19, 1999
Messages
443
"Your knife is a cutting tool... do not use it as a chisel, screw driver... blah blah blah"

So... why is my Commander and La Griffe ground with a chisel edge? Are the rest of the Emmerson range also ground with a chisel edge? What is the advantage of using this grind as opposed to the usual double ("V") grind?

Thanks in advance for helping unconfuse a confused mind.
 
Steelwolf, chisel grind has a few advantages.

Sharpness- the edge of the knife forms a smaller angle leaing to a very sharp geometry. The one side is flat or very slightly angled, like \|, as opposed to both sides of the edge being angled like \/. The beveled side of the edge is actualy at a slightly greater angle than an individual side of a typical knife edge. This preserves some strength in the balance between strength (thick edge) and sharpness (thin edge).

Maintainability- once one gets the hang of it, it's pretty easy to maintain a chisel ground edge. Rather than having to sharpen both sides, you sharpen the beveled side and strop the wire edge off the flat side. This is a great advantage if one has to sharpen in the field using a handheld device, since there's just one side to concentrate on.

This is probably an oversimplification,but it's my 0.02 worth anyways.
smile.gif

 
Why a chisel grind??

It's a gimmick. Less labor. No matching grind lines side to side.

There really is no advantage, except to the knifemaker.

Selwyn
 
Selwyn -

Try to design a double ground blade that can carry as much functional thickness out onto the blade as a chisel grind can. If you can do that, create a blade as strong and penetrating as a chisel all the way out to the end, then I will agree with your assessment. Until you do, though, I say you're plain wrong.
 
jbravo

I'll stand by my comments. The chisel grind leaves a lot to be desired when used as a knife, which in this case is what it is supposed to be, right? Want to punch 55 gal drums or car doors, get a chisel grind knife. Need a pry bar in a belt sheath, get a chisel grind. Get one with a grind that only goes half way up the blade. Maybe get one with the grind only a quarter inch up the blade. Better yet, huh?

The chisel grind is easy and quick for a maker to do. It was something different when introduced and the public does likes different. It sold, and sold somemore. Makers made more...you know the drill, boys and their toys

Personally, I prefer a real cutting instrument, a knife. Properly ground, of course.

Selwyn

 
I'm unclear here as to what the REAL motive is but let's elucidate the facts.
Chisel grind is a style of Edge.
It is a preference and has it's attributes
as do all other styles/designs.

A quick read of Japanese Bugei (Military Way/Warfare) reveals it's efficacy in combat.
Regardless of their personal history the Katana, Taichi, Waikizashi, Tanto etc. et al were EXTREMELY effective in penetrating ARMOR. Note most were Chisel or Kata Kuri Ba
design.

Mr. Emerson's roots were somewhat established
in MA community as well as Military. SpecWar specifically.

It seems to me that "Semper Parratus" (Always be prepared), Expect the Unexpected etc. are paridigms for men who work in an environment of "Harms way". Regardless of LE, Military, Diplomatic, UN, etc. et al
Professionals and civilians alike have to and make conscious choices regarding their equipment.

It is my belief that I may never know there is a problem untill there is a problem, if you get my drift. I want to be prepared for that moment(s) as best I can to gain every tactical advantage I can. I will not have the luxury of knowing what a potential adversary will be wearing. E.G. Body Armor heavy leather coat etc. I want the confidence and knowlege that my equipment will suffiently meet my needs/standards regarding my ability to perform at that exact moment it's called upon.

I cannot afford to second guess or have an edge not perform in a potential Life/death
situation w/ client or loved one etc.

I have NEVER seen a Chisel not perform 110%
to my expectations w/ regards to penetration, cutting & slashing. This includes extremely accurate and vital cuts/slashes/thrusts etc. et al.

I can understand the analogy that "any knife will do if only you will do" (revised from a weapons Traning school slogun). But, I have worked w/ this stuff for years and also know like Guns etc. there are better choices that I prefer to use when "TSHTF". Seek your own truth in life, but please lets not lose track of everyone's inate ability to make choices and dismiss PROVEN facts and documented EVIDENCE of a design/styles efficacy just because WE do not like them or whatever the reason may be. Chisel Grinds work period and they ARE an excellent design. There is no evidence to refute this. I'am not saying that they are the "Cat's ASS" In fact, I'm still searching for the Ultimate Perfect Design.
Just my $ .02
Thanks, Respectfully

------------------
"Though a man should conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle,
He who conquers himself is the greatest warrior."

"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
 
When the masses first saw a "chisel grind" used on a production folder, BM's CQC-7, it was done, not for its performance, but for its marketing direction. That's also why the grind is on the wrong side for a right handed knife, because the blade "looks better" that way, according to Benchmade.

As far as I know, there is no other manufacturer, besides EKI, that uses the one sided chisel grind.

As far as performance, the chisel grind edge is more fragile, and chips relatively easily (a fact many users of BM's CQC found out). And, it is more economical to produce, because there's only one set of grinds per blade.

--dan

------------------
pint1.gif


Co-Moderator of the General Flashlight, Lantern, & Headlamp Discussion Board at www.candlepowerforums.com
1*
 
The reason that the Benchmade produced CQC-7s might have had a problem with chipping is that they are, IMHO, heat treated a touch too hard. They are treated out to 60-61RC where as our knives are 57-59RC. This makes a tremendous difference as to brittleness.

I don't engage in the discussion on the merits of different grinds. People have their preferences and that is why there are so many different knives out there. I just don't want the misconception that the grind, not the heat treat, was responsible for the chipping of those knives.

------------------
Take care,
Derek
Emersonknives.com

The #1 Hard Use Knives In The World
 
Well said Tamishigiri

This "right side, left side, right side, wrong side" issue comes up every so often. It always sounds to me like a version of Dr Suess' "One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish".
biggrin.gif


Everyone here knows about Sushi knives, but EKI doesn't make bait knives, they make knives oriented towards defense.

As to your comment about EKI being the only manufacturer that makes chisel ground knives. number one, if they were, what's your point? Does a manufacturer have to make their knifes like everyone else to be "Correct". Secondly, no, their not the only production manufacturer that produces chisel ground knives. Microtech is one company that comes to mind. They have offered several chisel ground models and I had the pleasure of checking out their new Chisel ground Socom Elite Prototype the other day. Left side. LUDT HALO

To illustrate the "Blade thickness out to the point" for ya', here is a shot of the Socom Elite's top edge and one of comparing a regular Socom Elite (double ground) with the Chisel ground one on the bottom.

While I will grant you that Spyderco, Gerber and their ilk don't produce chisel ground blades for the masses, I can name many custom makers that produce chisel ground models for customers. Are all these professional knifemakers and knowledgeable customers fools? Don't they know?

All those Feudal Japanese Warriors not knowing that their chosen weapons wouldn't cut bait. They must have felt silly when they found out.

Imagine a scene. A dozen or so men sit on blue plastic chairs, loosely forming a circle. Many look bored, some ashamed. The overall mood of the room is uncomfortable.

Slowly one man stands, head hung low. "My name is John . . . and . . . I carry a chisel ground knife?" As one, the other men chime out "Hi John . . . . .

[This message has been edited by John Hollister (edited 11-26-2000).]
 
There is no denying that a chisel ground knife is quicker and easier to make. That fact doesn't deminish it's qualities. The point was already made, if it were perfect, every blade would be ground that way. There is a wide array of grinds out there and they all work. Some people prefer one over another based on experience or just looks.

Not speaking for Ernie, but passing on things I have heard from many other makers. Sometimes, the choice of grind or blade style comes down to what the maker likes to do. No science, or testing or surveys. Just the fact that they like it.

Just looking at Ernie as a businessman, this style sells and is sheaper to produce. For awhile, it was due to it's newness to the average knife nut. Then, we started hearing about it's history and attributes, it was appreciated for that. Now, it is Ernie's trademark. It's expected for him to use this grind. It's the same as Chevy and their bowtie logo, Nike and their Swoosh. It's part of him now.

Personally, I don't like the chisel grind.

------------------
Win if can, lose if you must, but always cheat.
 
One thing I don't understand. This is the Emerson Forum. Those of us who hang here understand the product, and respect it. Periodically, posts appear full of negative energy. Why do Emersons inspire so much controversy?
------------------
Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.

[This message has been edited by jackstraw (edited 11-26-2000).]
 
I believe Phil Hartsfield was instrumental in inspiring Ernie into opting for the Chisel design.
Phil is a fine Custom Maker and World renown.
People have the option of purchasing or not purchasing his knives as well. His are considerably more expensive than Ernie's.
I think Ernie's are by far a better product/value. But that's my opinion.

Benchmade is a another manufacture example as well MT as John Hollister pointed out.

I doubt if anyone really had an idea that Emerson Knives would experience the growth and popularity that it has. However, through all the adversity and conflict it has.

Many Professionals Worldwide have made the conscious decision to use the Chisel Grind to defend, protect, hunt, train, utility, multipupose etc. I do not think for one New York minute that it was ever a attempt to cut manufacturing costs at all. It was a different and somewhat unique design that in my opinion complemented a melding of Ernie's designs & shapes. You either like his stuff or don't. No different than ANY other maker's
knives.

I also know that when you dare to think for yourself and take risks to soar w/ Eagles as opposed to riding the draft of other Seagulls
you do take heat and FLAK. Like it or not, it comes w/ the territory. But then "He Who Dares Wins". Ah yes, the question what does he win ? He wins the victory for himself, for he has pulled it off.

IMHO

------------------
"Though a man should conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle,
He who conquers himself is the greatest warrior."

"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
 
I Think Chisel grind is not a bad design....or the Japanese Sushi chefs may have made a fool of themselves for centuries.

The reason why i say such is because recently i got the opportunity to witness a sushi meal prepared with a chisel grind chef knife. It has a 12" carbon blade, chisel grind with a beautiful hamon. It has a thin cutting edge(as it's meant to be) that slices sushi likes theres no tomorrow. I asked the chef if i could inspect the knife up-close and i tried it(with his approval of course).....the results are straight cuts that are clean and efficient.

What i'm trying to illustrate here is that different grinds and degrees of chisel grind design calls for different uses. The chef knife cuts straight as far as i know and Emerson's chisel grind(to me at least) are meant for defensive use. I carry a commander for THAT purpose and a leatherman for daily chores. Them both works well together because i sure wouldn't want to pull out my commander in a crowd that doesn't understand and potential BGs to know what i'm carrying.

I hope eveyone realise that some designs are a love/hate relationship, either you like it or leave it. Just my 2 cents worth.....

Eric.
 
Selwyn, I'll tell you one thing from experience. The chisel ground Emersons cut very well, just as Ernie intended.

------------------
Usual Suspect
http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/arkhamdrifter/index.html
 
Originally posted by arkhamdrifter:
Selwyn, I'll tell you one thing from experience. The chisel ground Emersons cut very well, just as Ernie intended.
Click to expand...

I can second that quote !
smile.gif
 
jackstraw, I believe that part of the negative energy could be the result of a controversy a while back. As far as I can tell, that issue is being taken care of. I am also sure he is a victim of becoming popular. You have people who can't stand seeing someone else do well, so they try to tear that person down.

Tamishigiri, I agree. I don't think the use of the chisel grind is a deliberate effort to cut costs. It is just one of those things that worked out.

------------------
Win if can, lose if you must, but always cheat.
 
So a chisel grind can cut, so what. What's the point?? Conventionally ground knives can cut too. Tell me I'm wrong about that.

If chisel ginds are soooo good, why aren't all knives chisel ground. Huh? Why not? Go to the museum, count the artifact knives that are chisel ground. What's the count?

The fact is that this grind is a timesaver for knifemakers and is nothing more than a gimmick.

Obviously, some fell for the gimmick didn't they?

Thus, they must defend it to the end.

Selwyn

 
I mulled this over for a long time, trying to come up with a diplomatic way of saying this (any of you that know me understand the challenge here) but I have decided to be blunt.

Selwyn,

I am not sure why you are so adamant about putting down chisel grinds as "a timesaver for knifemakers and is nothing more than a gimmick." Likewise, I am not sure why you additionally add "Obviously, some fell for the gimmick didn't they? Thus, they must defend it to the end."

Seems like you are trying to start a fight. I welcome all veiwpionts here and have never censored anyone here. When critisism crosses over to more personal related attacks, I must step in.

I liken this to someone going to the Paul Reed Smith Guitars forum and saying "Set necks suck! Give me a bolt neck Fender Strat any day. Anyone who buys a PRS guitar has bought in to a gimmick". There is no point to it.

Please feel free to express your veiw points but I do ask that you adjust the tone of your posts and refrain from the personal attacks.

Thus endeth the sermon.


------------------
Take care,
Derek
Emersonknives.com

The #1 Hard Use Knives In The World
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top