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Curious: Why chisel grind?
- Thread starter Steelwolf
- Start date
I would add that all can learn from re-reading Tamishigiri's posts. He is, in my opinion, above reproach in his qualification to speak on the topic. As he so clearly states, while it is not an either-or proposition whether to use chisel or double grinds, the efficiency and efficacy of the chisel cannot be doubted by the serious student.
I welcome Selwyn's posts though, because we all lose if anyone feels shut out from our free discourse here. Without his thoughts, I'd have missed out on the other's ideas too.
I welcome Selwyn's posts though, because we all lose if anyone feels shut out from our free discourse here. Without his thoughts, I'd have missed out on the other's ideas too.
PLEASE HELP! I have a CQC-7A (spearpoint chisel grind) I use ceramic rods for all my knives and can always achieve a shaving edge. I am not new to knives, but have never owned a knife with a chisel grind. What is the easiest way to sharpen chisel grind? I have never been able to make a benchstone work due to not being able to keep a constant angle. I am sending the knife in to Emerson for sharpening, but would like to be able to do this myself. Thanx.
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- Oct 8, 1998
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Did the Sushi Knife you inspected have a deep hollow grind on one side and chisel on the other?
The reason I ask is, I was speaking with Bud Nealy at the Blade Show this year and I was asking him about his Y2K, an excellent defensive knife I might add. Anyway, he was saying that he first saw that grind on a Sushi Knife in Japan and then he sort of pushed the envelope and the result is a very, very sharp knife.
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[1] No, you're not wrong about that at all. All sharp knives can cut. It is very simple. So, what is your point?
[2] I'm not a Curator, so I don't care.
[3] Yes and no. It can be a time saver and it is not a gimmick. That is your opinion and not a fact.
[4] Why would someone fall for a "gimmick" multiple times, hundreds of dollars, in the case of Emerson Customs, thousands of dollars. There is no "gimmick," these knives work for their intended purpose. I'm not into whittling.
[5] We are defending the fact that a chisel grind will effectively cut, at least that is what I am doing and I cannot speak for others.
I think you're picking gnat sh*t out of black pepper.
For me personally, a defensive knife that folds will always be an "OSD." An "Oh Sh*t Device."
No sane person knowingly goes into a gunfight with only a handgun if they have a rifle or shotgun available. I think the same could be said for the folder vs. fixed blade.
The problem is, life is not so simple and we carry things out of convenience and out of need to be armed when we have to.
I fail to see the lack of cutting ability that is alluded to by critics of chisel grinds.
Would I love to have a fully double "V" ground Commander? Yes.
Is the chisel grind on my Emersons going to fail when I need them to succeed, in order for me to survive? No.
Defensive use of a knife is not whittling. If someone grabs you and chokes you from behind in an alley somewhere so his buddy can come out of nowhere and open up your lowline...the fact that you have a chisel ground knife is not going to make any difference whatsoever. With the caveat that it is maintained and has a razor sharp edge. You will cut him and he will get injured. Simple as that.
All of this stuff about chisel ground knives don't do this but they do that...is a non-issue. We're talking about meat.
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- Apr 19, 1999
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- 2,259
Don - the Japanese chef knife in question was a custom made piece that cost USD$450...and it was only an average model from the maker!
I'll try my best to describe it. The knife had grinds meant for right hand use....flat on one side and flat grind on the chisel side(or grind side..) which looks something like this; \|
It is very basic unlike what Bud had seen but the grind side was ground very thin. The chef told me that the cutting edge will chip easily if you use it to cut hard food due to it's high RC. Don't ask how high because it wasn't tested.....it performed best with meat as it was made to be. And Yes, it cut straight because although it was chiseled, the point of contact on the cutting edge and grind side was thin and high enough to cut straight! The term "hair will jump off upon reaching..." is true.
And Don, well said on your second post. I don't think i would bother much on how "straight" the wound i inflict but instead, how efficient i inflict it!
I'll try to find a pix of it and post it here for better understanding. Hope this helps!
Eric.
[This message has been edited by keninshiro (edited 11-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by keninshiro (edited 11-28-2000).]
I'll try my best to describe it. The knife had grinds meant for right hand use....flat on one side and flat grind on the chisel side(or grind side..) which looks something like this; \|
It is very basic unlike what Bud had seen but the grind side was ground very thin. The chef told me that the cutting edge will chip easily if you use it to cut hard food due to it's high RC. Don't ask how high because it wasn't tested.....it performed best with meat as it was made to be. And Yes, it cut straight because although it was chiseled, the point of contact on the cutting edge and grind side was thin and high enough to cut straight! The term "hair will jump off upon reaching..." is true.
And Don, well said on your second post. I don't think i would bother much on how "straight" the wound i inflict but instead, how efficient i inflict it!
I'll try to find a pix of it and post it here for better understanding. Hope this helps!
Eric.
[This message has been edited by keninshiro (edited 11-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by keninshiro (edited 11-28-2000).]
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- Oct 8, 1998
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- 8,917
Very interesting...
- Joined
- Aug 22, 1999
- Messages
- 667
Selwyn,
No disagreement there regarding ALL Edged Weapons Cut regardless of grind.
FYI, the better comprehensive Museums in FACT do feature a display of usually Tokugawa Period (Fuedal Japan) 1200 AD -1700
AD (approximetly w/o getting out my books).
The displays generally show DIFFERENT CHISEL ground Battle Blades as well as other grinds. *(read Swords & knives).
A more detailed comparison at the Museum also reveals that during Crusades Battle blades *(read swords) were not as effient in battle due to ineffient blade edge strength.
Yes, they were heavy and packed a wallop
and no doubt hurt like the dickens.
Which begs the question why were the Japanese able to penetrate Armor in Battle better than the Euorpeans ?
The edge design was SUPERIOR at penetrating Armor Period. In addition as has been previously mentioned numerous times thrusting
into the Body Cavity.
The Battle blades of Japan were faster, lighter, stronger had the tempering process "ACED" (Hamon). Come on, these swords can split STEEL HELMETS ! Talk about validation!
As far as a "Gimmick" goes there are hundreds of thousands of chisel ground sushi knives and utility knives in Japan. They index precision cuts that I can only DREAM to be half that accurate as some of the craftsman I have seen. If they are a "Gimmick" it's better than a 6th recount gimmick we are having to subject ourselves to in this country.
IMHO
Bye the way I really enjoy this w/ ALL you guys when I have the time.
This Forum ROCKS !
------------------
"Though a man should conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle,
He who conquers himself is the greatest warrior."
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
[This message has been edited by Tamishigiri (edited 11-27-2000).]
No disagreement there regarding ALL Edged Weapons Cut regardless of grind.
FYI, the better comprehensive Museums in FACT do feature a display of usually Tokugawa Period (Fuedal Japan) 1200 AD -1700
AD (approximetly w/o getting out my books).
The displays generally show DIFFERENT CHISEL ground Battle Blades as well as other grinds. *(read Swords & knives).
A more detailed comparison at the Museum also reveals that during Crusades Battle blades *(read swords) were not as effient in battle due to ineffient blade edge strength.
Yes, they were heavy and packed a wallop
and no doubt hurt like the dickens.
Which begs the question why were the Japanese able to penetrate Armor in Battle better than the Euorpeans ?
The edge design was SUPERIOR at penetrating Armor Period. In addition as has been previously mentioned numerous times thrusting
into the Body Cavity.
The Battle blades of Japan were faster, lighter, stronger had the tempering process "ACED" (Hamon). Come on, these swords can split STEEL HELMETS ! Talk about validation!
As far as a "Gimmick" goes there are hundreds of thousands of chisel ground sushi knives and utility knives in Japan. They index precision cuts that I can only DREAM to be half that accurate as some of the craftsman I have seen. If they are a "Gimmick" it's better than a 6th recount gimmick we are having to subject ourselves to in this country.
IMHO
Bye the way I really enjoy this w/ ALL you guys when I have the time.
This Forum ROCKS !
------------------
"Though a man should conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle,
He who conquers himself is the greatest warrior."
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."
[This message has been edited by Tamishigiri (edited 11-27-2000).]
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- Apr 16, 2000
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- 605
Tami, Derek and Don,
excellant Replies for Selwyn but I think that
if he hasn't listened by now,he just isn't going to
that's just my own $.01 worth
excellant Replies for Selwyn but I think that
if he hasn't listened by now,he just isn't going to
that's just my own $.01 worth
- Joined
- Sep 14, 1999
- Messages
- 491
Selwyn,
I have spoken to a number of custom knife makers, including Ernie, regarding the chisel grind. While some did not make chisel ground blades, all agreed that it was an effective cutting edge for defensive purposes. Furthermore, I have used a wide variety of knives for a wide variety of cutting tasks and the chisel grind cuts fine.
Selwyn, you said "So a chisel grind can cut, so what. What's the point?? Conventionally ground knives can cut too. Tell me I'm wrong about that."
To this I say that is precisely the point. It cuts. And no, you are not wrong about the fact that other "conventionally" ground knives cut too. Then again, nobody is saying otherwise. You basically resolved your own arguement in the above mentioned staement.
I have worked with several knife makers in designing defensive knives. While all of my designs were executed properly by the makers, some were successful and some were not. Of the unsuccessful designs, none suffered from having been chisel ground.
Some of my knives are flat ground, others V ground. I have not experienced the chisel ground edge geometry as being especially prone to chipping and cracking. As a matter of fact I have seen flat ground blades and hollow ground blades crack and chip. But this has as much if not more to do with the material and heat treatment than reasonable edge geometry.
If you would like I will send you one of my knives and you can put it through whatever cutting tests you would like.
Bear in mind that if you are determined to dull, chip, crack or otherwise defeat a cutting tool then you will succeed no matter what the edge geometry may be.
If however you wish to be somewhat objective in your approach to truely determining a knife's cutting ability then you will probably find that the chisel ground edge is not simply a gimmick.
The real test is whether one can set aside their opinions and assumptions and see the facts for what they are.
------------------
Usual Suspect http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/arkhamdrifter/index.html
[This message has been edited by arkhamdrifter (edited 11-28-2000).]
I have spoken to a number of custom knife makers, including Ernie, regarding the chisel grind. While some did not make chisel ground blades, all agreed that it was an effective cutting edge for defensive purposes. Furthermore, I have used a wide variety of knives for a wide variety of cutting tasks and the chisel grind cuts fine.
Selwyn, you said "So a chisel grind can cut, so what. What's the point?? Conventionally ground knives can cut too. Tell me I'm wrong about that."
To this I say that is precisely the point. It cuts. And no, you are not wrong about the fact that other "conventionally" ground knives cut too. Then again, nobody is saying otherwise. You basically resolved your own arguement in the above mentioned staement.
I have worked with several knife makers in designing defensive knives. While all of my designs were executed properly by the makers, some were successful and some were not. Of the unsuccessful designs, none suffered from having been chisel ground.
Some of my knives are flat ground, others V ground. I have not experienced the chisel ground edge geometry as being especially prone to chipping and cracking. As a matter of fact I have seen flat ground blades and hollow ground blades crack and chip. But this has as much if not more to do with the material and heat treatment than reasonable edge geometry.
If you would like I will send you one of my knives and you can put it through whatever cutting tests you would like.
Bear in mind that if you are determined to dull, chip, crack or otherwise defeat a cutting tool then you will succeed no matter what the edge geometry may be.
If however you wish to be somewhat objective in your approach to truely determining a knife's cutting ability then you will probably find that the chisel ground edge is not simply a gimmick.
The real test is whether one can set aside their opinions and assumptions and see the facts for what they are.
------------------
Usual Suspect http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/arkhamdrifter/index.html
[This message has been edited by arkhamdrifter (edited 11-28-2000).]
Wow! I'm away for 2 days and look at all the replies you guys put in. Definitely a place brimming with information.
Just to make sure I understand,
1. From the tone of the replies, I'm guessing that all Emmerson production knives are chisel ground on the left side of the blade. ie \|
2. The design requirement for these knives was as a defensive weapon, not a utility tool, therefore the strongest possible grind type had to be selected.
2a. Since, in a defensive situation, one must expect to have to punch through thick clothing, body armour, etc, before being able to cut the BG, the type of grind used must provide plenty of backing to the cutting edge to achieve maximum strength.
2b. Doing damage to a BG is not so much dependent on cutting efficiency (which would entail a thin edge, ergo the sushi chef's knife), but being able to retain a sharp enough edge despite punching through layers of material striving to dull or chip the edge. Therefore, within reason, the grind angle should be left as obtuse as possible.
3. With the exception of the hollow grind, most of the other grinds would actually have been alright to use with appropriate grind angles and heat treat. V-ground edge, convex/sabre grind, chisel... even the Busse grind. The convex type edges would have put a little more drag, though.
4. The chisel grind had the added advantage of being simpler to grind and cheaper and easier to produce.
5. The relief being cut on the left side of the blade ( \| instead of |/ ) was most likely because of visual appeal. It does not make a real difference because you're supposed to be cutting people with this blade, not whittling things.
Did I understand it right?
BTW, it's come time to resharpen my LaGriffe and I'm having trouble getting a sharp edge. Anyone have tips on how to get it right? I think the difficulty I'm facing is that the factory didn't do a proper chisel grind. The left side is as per chisel grind specification, but the right side has a little bit ground off which turns the edge in to an asymmetrical V. The burr appears to be forming as required, but because of the grind on the right side of the edge, it is actually a little below the face of the blade when I lay it flat on its right side.
Also, I have one little request to make: Please please please make the La Griffe edge 1/2" - 1" longer.
Awright... thanks for reading, y'all.
Just to make sure I understand,
1. From the tone of the replies, I'm guessing that all Emmerson production knives are chisel ground on the left side of the blade. ie \|
2. The design requirement for these knives was as a defensive weapon, not a utility tool, therefore the strongest possible grind type had to be selected.
2a. Since, in a defensive situation, one must expect to have to punch through thick clothing, body armour, etc, before being able to cut the BG, the type of grind used must provide plenty of backing to the cutting edge to achieve maximum strength.
2b. Doing damage to a BG is not so much dependent on cutting efficiency (which would entail a thin edge, ergo the sushi chef's knife), but being able to retain a sharp enough edge despite punching through layers of material striving to dull or chip the edge. Therefore, within reason, the grind angle should be left as obtuse as possible.
3. With the exception of the hollow grind, most of the other grinds would actually have been alright to use with appropriate grind angles and heat treat. V-ground edge, convex/sabre grind, chisel... even the Busse grind. The convex type edges would have put a little more drag, though.
4. The chisel grind had the added advantage of being simpler to grind and cheaper and easier to produce.
5. The relief being cut on the left side of the blade ( \| instead of |/ ) was most likely because of visual appeal. It does not make a real difference because you're supposed to be cutting people with this blade, not whittling things.
Did I understand it right?
BTW, it's come time to resharpen my LaGriffe and I'm having trouble getting a sharp edge. Anyone have tips on how to get it right? I think the difficulty I'm facing is that the factory didn't do a proper chisel grind. The left side is as per chisel grind specification, but the right side has a little bit ground off which turns the edge in to an asymmetrical V. The burr appears to be forming as required, but because of the grind on the right side of the edge, it is actually a little below the face of the blade when I lay it flat on its right side.
Also, I have one little request to make: Please please please make the La Griffe edge 1/2" - 1" longer.
Awright... thanks for reading, y'all.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2000
- Messages
- 413
What an interesting thread. It's amazing what those that dislike Emerson knives will come up with. I am here at my desk eating lunch and cutting my chicken breast with my CQC7B. No problems here. The cuts were nice and straight and very clean.
As I sit here typing this, I am musing about the 3" gash in my flannel shirt that I am wearing over my polo shirt. You see, I just bought an Over-The-Shoulder-Folder-Holder for the CQC7 and a guy at work wanted to see it. So I wore it in today and showed him the draw and how quick it is. He was quick to point out the cut my shirt received during the draw. I didn't even realize it! There was no drag at all!
Some guys here are skeptical about the tanto chisel gring until we do a side by side cutting test and mine just keeps on cutting, and cutting, and cutting..............
And then I resharpen it in 5 minutes on a DMT stone and shave the hair off my arm and they walk away shaking their heads
There are those who criticize out of ignorance. The rest of us know the truth.
------------------
Brigadier
Beretta 92 FS nut and Wave-aholic
"And for this cause God shall send them stong delusion,that they should believe a lie;" 2 Thessalonians 2:11
As I sit here typing this, I am musing about the 3" gash in my flannel shirt that I am wearing over my polo shirt. You see, I just bought an Over-The-Shoulder-Folder-Holder for the CQC7 and a guy at work wanted to see it. So I wore it in today and showed him the draw and how quick it is. He was quick to point out the cut my shirt received during the draw. I didn't even realize it! There was no drag at all!
Some guys here are skeptical about the tanto chisel gring until we do a side by side cutting test and mine just keeps on cutting, and cutting, and cutting..............
And then I resharpen it in 5 minutes on a DMT stone and shave the hair off my arm and they walk away shaking their heads
There are those who criticize out of ignorance. The rest of us know the truth.
------------------
Brigadier
Beretta 92 FS nut and Wave-aholic
"And for this cause God shall send them stong delusion,that they should believe a lie;" 2 Thessalonians 2:11
Just thougt I would add a couple of comments to my earlier post.
I don't study knife combatives, and I really can't comment on chisel ground knives as defensive weapons. I must take my fellow forumites words that the chisel grind will do quite nicely for such use.
That said, I don't think the Emerson knives have to be defended as being intended primarily for defensive use. Having owned a commander for a while, and having just recieved an SOCFK, I must say that they perform quite nicely in the utility department.
For years my favorite knife was an Benchmade CQC 7, and it cut a lot of tough stuff.
I'v also read some of the posts on left vs. right grind. I don't want to restart those arguments. However, as regards my purely subjective impression, I have never had a problem using left side grinds \(I'm right handed).
Just sharing my personal impressions.
------------------
Hugh
I don't study knife combatives, and I really can't comment on chisel ground knives as defensive weapons. I must take my fellow forumites words that the chisel grind will do quite nicely for such use.
That said, I don't think the Emerson knives have to be defended as being intended primarily for defensive use. Having owned a commander for a while, and having just recieved an SOCFK, I must say that they perform quite nicely in the utility department.
I'v also read some of the posts on left vs. right grind. I don't want to restart those arguments. However, as regards my purely subjective impression, I have never had a problem using left side grinds \(I'm right handed).
Just sharing my personal impressions.
------------------
Hugh