Custom knife makers steel choice- what drives it??

roninelh

roninelh

Joined
Dec 14, 2010
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Perhaps some of you upper level collectors can explain to me why there are so many high end stainless steels used in custom slipjoints and the production market is pretty much dominated by "carbon" steel and tool steel. I have been looking at custom makers and I see a flood of ATS-34 and 154CM. Is this driven by demand, or is it a product of people not wanting cheap 1095 on a $500 custom? Is it crazy that I would want a custom with expensive ivory scales to come with a working class steel like 1095 or O-1? I am not a fan of stainless, and i'm sure a custom maker would make me whatever I wanted, I was just pondering why a lot of custom makers only advertise their stainless creations? I even read a thread recently talking about wanting makers to use modern super steels for traditionals.

Many of us traditional knife nuts are fans of a good patina,So, why the demand for carbon in the production market and stainless in the custom market?
 
No idea, but I'd like to add that I don't get why a lot of customs have stainless steel liners and bolsters.
Not my cup of tea, and (more importantly) not traditional.
 
The production market has so many carbon steels because of their stamping methods. Carbon steels are relatively easy to stamp out while the stainless steels would be hard on their equipment.
 
I see that a lot too but the ones I've dealt with will work with you on your choice of steel.
 
Guess I'm the exception to that one while I can't imagine buying a GEC in anything but 1095, when it comes to customs I prefer the more refined stainless steels. Take a look at John Lloyd he uses 52100 quite a bit, of course Hanson and carbon steel are like PB&J too. There are some out there.
 
One high end knife artisan mentioned above loves W2.

Pretty good thread that discusses Least Favorite Knife Steel is in General Knife Discussion.

I do not like 8cr13mov.

Good steel plus good heat treatment = me like.
 
I sure like 1095. But I am not going to turn my nose up at other great steels.

I like Ats34, D2, CPM154, 52100, A2. Shoot, I would love a traditional with a nice thin super steel just as much as a 1095.

I would love GEC to offer the 01 in more models. If they would do up some in CMP D2, I sure would love it if GEC came out with a few different steels.

I like a folder to take on age. But I have a few that are stainless and those make great fruit knives, etc.


They all bring me enjoyment.
 
I too enjoy my stainless knives, I just enjoy carbon steel more. I really like what Ray Mears says about it "stainless has no soul", Im paraphrasing, but i've always enjoyed "caring" for basic carbon steels, it makes my bond with it stronger. As far as production knives like GEC go, the more steel choice the better. Referring to what Jamesbeat says above, I just don't quite understand why modern custom makers don't stick with the traditional materials that seem to control the production market... A true custom traditional. Perhaps, it's just a matter of not wanting to make things from the same materials as the production companies to justify the steep price tag, although, if I purchased a custom it would be because of the attention to detail and craftsmanship... not the materials. Maybe not everyone sees it that way.
 
I know of custom makers offering A2, D2, W2, and 52100. Not to mention damascus steels.

The makers offer what the customer wants. In the case of custom slipjoints that means premium handle materials and a higher grade of stainless steel. With production knives, manufacturers have to take production methods and limitations into account. That means using steels that are easier to stamp, grind, and heat treat. That is why you see most manufacturers using steels like 420HC and 1095. It is much more friendly to their bottom line than using steels like D2 and BG42.

On the other hand, the custom makers grind out each blade one at a time. Each blade is then heat treated singly, instead of in large batches. With this much attention to detail the custom makers can afford to take the time necessary to use more difficult to work steels like CPM154. That is just not economically feasible with mass production methods.

Upon contacting a maker be sure to let him now that you want him to use 1095 for the blade. I don't think you'll have any trouble. In fact he'll probably be thanking you for the break. 1095 will be a welcome reprieve from the more demanding steels he has to work with like CPM154.

When you do decide to pull the trigger on a $500 custom, please post it here. I am curious to see what you actually get. People say all the time that 1095 is all they want or need on a knife. I want to see if your fondness for 1095 holds true at the $500 price point.

- Christian
 
kamagong said:
I know of custom makers offering A2, D2, W2, and 52100. Not to mention damascus steels.

The makers offer what the customer wants. In the case of custom slipjoints that means premium handle materials and a higher grade of stainless steel. With production knives, manufacturers have to take production methods and limitations into account. That means using steels that are easier to stamp, grind, and heat treat. That is why you see most manufacturers using steels like 420HC and 1095. It is much more friendly to their bottom line than using steels like D2 and BG42.

On the other hand, the custom makers grind out each blade one at a time. Each blade is then heat treated singly, instead of in large batches. With this much attention to detail the custom makers can afford to take the time necessary to use more difficult to work steels like CPM154. That is just not economically feasible with mass production methods.

Upon contacting a maker be sure to let him now that you want him to use 1095 for the blade. I don't think you'll have any trouble. In fact he'll probably be thanking you for the break. 1095 will be a welcome reprieve from the more demanding steels he has to work with like CPM154.

When you do decide to pull the trigger on a $500 custom, please post it here. I am curious to see what you actually get. People say all the time that 1095 is all they want or need on a knife. I want to see if your fondness for 1095 holds true at the $500 price point.

- Christian
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You make some good points here, I work in a metal shop and I hate machining or working with stainless, heat treated material, T6 aluminum or god forbid titanium.. I understand it and i'm not absolutely saying that if I spent $500 on a custom the blade would be 1095. If a production company offers me D2 or 1095, I will buy the 1095 9 out of 10.

It's just that cruzing around the web for existing custom knives (made by the maker not for a specific order) the bulk of the knives were not made of traditional materials (brass, nickel silver,carbon steel) and all stainless blades and stainless liners and pins. I also noticed there are certain patterns that custom makers prefer as well. I understand that these guys have more than enough skill to make anything i want out of any steel i asked for.

I admit that I am ill-informed about customs, and it would figure that the knives would be made from more exotic materials. I am just starting on the journey to my first custom, and I have some thinking to do. I'll probably ask you guys a couple more dumb questions along the way.:confused:

Thanks for the responses!
 
the OP raises an interesting question, I hope some custommakers also post something to the thread. Looking at the customs, it is as if they have a common style, marked by high end steels and all steel construction. I wonder if it is the influence of one particular old maker, like Tony Bose? I mean did it start off as his preferred style, which in turn inspired other custom makers?

Related to this, not only do you rarely see the more modest carbon steels on customs, there seem to be some steels that you never see on any custom traditional knife? I mean there is a lot of cpm154, ats-34, but not so much of the still higher end alloys like S90V, ...or whatever new special steel is currently preferred on modern folders?
 
While I offer both D2 and 01 as options to ats-34 only rarely (3 times a year) does a customer
ask about not working in ss, I only ever made one slipjoint not to order from carbon steel and
advertised it for sale on the forum. The knife did sell but not very quickly. When the price goes
above that $350 mark patina takes a real hit as far as the reason to buy a knife. I believe D2 to
be far and away the most popular non stainless, and even then its not real hard to care for. As
far as the new alphabet soup steels there will be a new one tommorow and the next day-- etc.
Ken.
 
Last edited:
kc custom said:
While I offer both D2 and 01 as options to ats-34 only rarely (3 times a year) does a customer
ask about not working in ss, I only ever made one slipjoint not to order from carbon steel and
advertised it for sale on the forum. The knife did sell but not very quickly. When the price goes
above that $350 mark patina takes a real hit as far as the reason to buy a knife. I believe D2 to
be far and away the most popular non stainless, and even then its not real hard to care for. As
far as the new alphabet soup steels there will be a new one tommorow and the next day-- etc.
Ken.
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in Ken, BTW, you are one of the makers that convinced me I needed to look into customs. I saw a shadow EO jack of yours in jigged amber bone that made my jaw hit the floor.

I also agree about the alphabet soup steels, Leave it to the tactical crowd. After more research, i'm starting to get the high end stainless thing more. My only experience with 154CM is spydercos and I had a heck of a time sharpening it. I don't know how a custom makers personally heat treated 154CM would perform or sharpen up. Maybe i'm not ready for a custom if I cant even sharpen it well...
 
I think Ken summed it up pretty well. My go to stainless is CPM 154CM. For me it is something that I feel very confident in my heat treat and in it's performance. It has a good toughness and edge retention but still sharpens fairly easily.

I love using O1 as my go to carbon steel because of my experience with it on my fixed blades. Very tough even at 63 RC and easy as pie to sharpen.

I have been testing out different "super steels" on my bushcraft blades, like 3V, S35VN, S90V, etc. and they all have their pluses and minuses. For a small folder I don't see a need for a tough steel like 3V. A hard steel like S90V might be for the real hardcore knife person that has the skills or equipment to sharpen it, because it's not easy.

In the end I see about the same ratio of people that want carbon vs. stainless. I do, however, have a zulu lockback coming up that will have integral bolsters and ivory handles with an etched O1 blade. That's the beauty of variety.
 
I'm a fan of carbon and patinas and wish I saw more 01 on folders, have to say custom makers make the stainless look mighty good all the same!
 
J. Oeser said:
I think Ken summed it up pretty well. My go to stainless is CPM 154CM. For me it is something that I feel very confident in my heat treat and in it's performance. It has a good toughness and edge retention but still sharpens fairly easily.
Click to expand...

This is a great point Mr. Oeser, I would ask a maker what he is best at. It's like asking Monet to paint a Jackson Pollock... I would want a maker to give me his very best and use the materials that will yield those results.. Every maker has their own style and special qualities.
 
I tend to be a fan of carbon steels but only 1/3 of my knives, that I didn't make, are carbon steel. I do like ss bolsters and liners because they show less pocket wear and scratches. Strange that I don't mind scratches and patina on the blade, but I want the covers, bolsters and liners clean. When I do attempt to make a slip joint it will be carbon steel with ss liners and bolsters. I also have no affection toward screws or bolts in place of pins.

Chris
 
I guess I tend to find stainless steels boring. If I'm ever able to afford a custom I'll go for something like the Aogami Super Blue.
 
A lot of them offer stainless, but the problem is the low quality of it today. It seems like if they're woried about equipment being messed up in the stamping process they could use something like 12c27 or 14c28n steel since they're both fine blankable steels that you can stamp out, so I can't imagine they would be any harder on equipment vs 1095, that and they can be hardened around 60hrc without any problem. 14c28n especially resists rust because of the inclusion of nitrogen as an alloying element and both can take screaming sharp edges like any carbon steel, and have edge retention only a bit below 1095 while still being a huge improvement in all fronts on the 420hc steel that most use. It would probably be cheaper to grind than 440c which is still use in traditionals too since if I remember you can't stamp it out and it has to be either water jetted or laser cut, so it's softer in it's unhardened state. Or another alternative would be CPM 154 which would still needs to be laser cut or water jetted, but is probably marginally easier on machines compared to 440c due to the CPM process it uses and performs in every way better than 440c and 1095 outside of impact resistance.
 
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