Custom Knife Market

Stephen F

Stephen F

Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Messages
1,235
I have seen a few posts recently with words in the like "Clones", "typical ABS Bowie" etc. This has prompted some thought on my part about the state of the current market. For example: Is the market becoming saturated with certain styles and looks? Are too many makers following a proven path rather than carving their own niche? And finally, Are there actually any truley new and innovative paths makers can forge themselves any more or are we firmly in the era of gradual evolution and refinement?

My personal view is that there is enough variety and permutations out there to keep anyone happy if they look, and that the "clones" are purely natural step in any makers development whilst they hone their skills.

But what do other collectors think? What do makers think? What inspires you and what determines the paths you follow?

Cheers,

Stephen
 
Knifemaking is at its peak, there are oodles of beautiful knives being made. Every custom knife can't be spectacular, just like everyone can't be "the best." Maybe we're getting spoiled and jaded.
We're still seeing artistic innovation in knifemaking, I don't think it's stagnating at all.
Some new makers have a style all their own, and some replicate the classics. I like the classics, so "typical ABS Bowie" isn't damning with faint praise, to me.
 
Stephen F said:
I have seen a few posts recently with words in the like "Clones", "typical ABS Bowie" etc. This has prompted some thought on my part about the state of the current market. For example: Is the market becoming saturated with certain styles and looks? Are too many makers following a proven path rather than carving their own niche?
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There are a great deal of makers in the ABS that make knives that look like Jerry Fisk made them. Are there too many of them doing this? Yes, I think that there are. Are these makers selling knives? Yes, they are selling most of everything that they can make. Do I think that this will go on for a long, long time? I hope not, and my experiences in the market have shown me that the strong will continue, and the weakest of the group will fall off. This is as important a time as any to work on a critical eye, and NOT run with the herd in terms of purchasing decisions.

I admire and respect you, and Roger P., and PTGDVC and Danbo immensely, and have some knives by makers that you all have in my collection, but I also am wary of some of the makers that you all collect, because I do not think that enough discrimination was used in making the purchasing decision.

Stephen F said:
And finally, Are there actually any truley new and innovative paths makers can forge themselves any more or are we firmly in the era of gradual evolution and refinement?
Click to expand...

Yes, new and innovative paths can be created. Todd Begg is doing some unique work (I don't care for it, but it is unique), Ken Onion, the variety of smiths COMPLETELY inventing new and different damascus patterns, the infusion of different media into the craft (glasswork, carving...), but we ARE simultaneously in a time of evolution and refinement as well. Not a lot has changed, what we are seeing is a much greater influx of makers coming to the craft.
t
Stephen F said:
......The "clones" are purely natural step in any makers development whilst they hone their skills.
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Sorry, but that is a pile of crap. There is no need to "copy" the master. It is natural to emulate in the begining, but you need to break off of that as soon as possible, otherwise you paint yourself into a corner. People who cannot get or afford the works of the originator buy your work because they cannot afford or do not want to wait for the masterpieces. They want instant gratification, and you become a permanent member of the "B" list. What this shows is an incredible lack of imagination or willingness to take risk.

Stephen F said:
But what do other collectors think? What do makers think? What inspires you and what determines the paths you follow?
Click to expand...

I am inspired to collect excellent work. I look for original thinking, top notch craft, and sweat equity; I want well priced pieces that CAN make me some money down the line, should I choose to sell them. I am not always dead on, but a recent spate of selling is showing me that my purchasing decisions are following my goals-to maintain value.

I like to collect makers that personally vibe well with me. Buttholes need not apply. If I cannot at least have a normal conversation with the maker at a show, I am not moved to have a piece of their soul in my collection. I collect a variety of ways; forged/stock removal, folder/fixed blade, American style/Asian-American style, tactical/art, heavily embellished/plain. I have makers from A-Z, I collect different folder mechanisms, and I try to have at least one piece with a new/different steel ie: 154CM, BG42, S30V, 52100, L6...I want each knife to be different, even if it is part of a matched set.

You could call my collecting style...schizophrenic. It does not make sense to anyone but me, until you see it laid out in one room, then it is really quite something.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Steve, if you get the chance to post some pics of your collection (or parts thereof), I'd be quite interested in seeing them.
 
Stephen As you know from seeing part of my collection at the Blade Show, I have a love of hunting knives, yet no two are the same . When I buy a hunter I always try to buy a knife the maker feels is his own . If I'm ordering a knife , and the maker asks what I want, my answer is I want a knife that you want to make. Style does not matter. I've never been dissapointed yet. I think sometimes buyers try to influence too much on the knives they order. That, in itself, can make too many knives look alike. Larry B.
 
lb14306 said:
I think sometimes buyers try to influence too much on the knives they order. That, in itself, can make too many knives look alike. Larry B.
Click to expand...

Thats an excellent point Larry, it would be interesting to hear from a makers perspective if they feel restricted by the demand from collectors of certain styles or features. Do makers feel they have to make what they think will sell at the expense of diversity?

Stephen
 
I am hesistant to post my collection, but have no problem putting a little "taste" out there.




Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I have yet to figure out the market enough to be ahead of the curve. The trends are usually in full swing by the time I try them out. Therefore, I do what works best for me. I build knives that excite me and keep me wanting to get back in the shop. I also build a few basic knives that appeal to a variety of people because I know that collectors have to start somewhere.
Trends being what they are, they come and go. But a classic is always going to be a classic. That is why you have the 'typical ABS Bowie'. After 170 years the Bowie is still with us, and the American and English interpretations of the Bowie Knife over the years influence what is being made today. Nothing new under the sun, so to speak.
The challenge in this golden age of knifemaking is to take these classic designs and give them our own personality, each makers style showing through. Thats what separates folks like Fisk, Hancock, Newton and Bradshaw from the rest of the crowd.
Thats my $0.02,
JP
 
I think that the knife market is becoming saturated with knives that all look the same or very similar. Either you have the maker who only makes 5 different patterns and just changes the materials around, the guy who only makes knives in a particular style like bowies or drop point hunters or the guys who make the same knife over and over.

I think that the Abs and their knife judging criteria are forcing makers going for their Js stamp to make "safe" knives that all look the same.

Let me elaborate on a safe knife. A safe knife to me is a knife that the maker knows will pass the JS judging and not cause any controversy. This knife is plain, simple, has good fit and finish but nothing to make it different then the other guys next to him 5 knives.

At this poing in my knifemaking career I have learned a few things. To get ahead in this business you either have to build a better knife than everyone else, be compettitive in your pricing or find a niche and make something that no one else is making. The last one is tough to do!

At this past blade show there was a maker who had his table near mine and didn's sell a thing. He made a beautiful knife, great fit and finish, nice guy, good table location and priced well. Why didn't he sell anything? Because his knives looked like everyone else's!

In this business you have to set yourself apart from the crowd or be swallowed up by it. I look at knife websites like knifeart and can't count on both hands the number of makers out there just making bowies or drop point hunting knives.
Variety is the spice of life.

How about this for originality? BTW it's a folder!

Image_Bonus.asp
 
There are a lot of knives out there that seem to made to a blueprint. The one that I notice the most is what I have seen referred to as the ABS bowie. This knife is easily recognizable and is everywhere. Then again, there are huge numbers of very original designs out there as well. I look for the makers that think outside the box. There are plenty of them.

Chuck, that is another beauty. It has some definite influence, but originality in spades. A great looking knife.
 
Ultimately the market determines who stays and who goes. As well as what designs and materials are fads, trends or become classics.

WWG
 
I agree that you see a lot of ABS Bowies these days. I like them, but I see so many high quality examples that I end up never buying one (well, that's not quite true but you get my point).

This being said, 10 years ago the omnipresent pattern was the large 'Iron Mistress', with a huge curved clip, and I'll take the modern day profile over this one every day... :barf: :barf: :barf:

These days I see many more top notch makers (in terms of technical skills), but I think the variety has diminished a bit. I also think that makers find a market without having to challenge their designs so much and don't innovate that much (another way to say that is that customers always demand the same thing and are not willing to pay good money for something different). Technical innovation is still there though.
 
Great topic Stephan! Some buyers may have a small handful of knives and any new acquisition has to be an 'important' acquisition or financially it just won't happen, for others the funding is more free to literally 'go shopping', and some hope to make a return someday on the things they buy...

I find that certain styles and materials "resonate with me" and even a brand new maker (or I've just discovered them LOL) can have me wanting to buy if they have made something in the style or "vibe" (including quality) of what I want, though a more experienced collector may view that purchase from different perspectives than I, I would still buy even if by a "true collector's perspective" it might not be a good investment.

I usually have to see something unique the maker has managed to put into the piece for me to "get up the will" to buy it, as my money isn't currently growing on trees. But one great thing about great knives, they motivate me to want to have more of them!

I do see myself buying along a fairly narrow nitch, but it's the uniquenesses and the quality within that nitch that pushes me to want to buy a particular knife, famous collectible maker or not. I'm happy seeing the maker get paid well for what they do, even if I can't buy many. I'd rather have a few that really ring my bells than 10 or 12 "examples of a genre".

Frank H.
 
There are many, many more full-time knifemakers than there were 10-15 years ago when I started collecting.

Magazines and the Internet have made "rock stars" out of some makers and that has attracted many to the profession that would have traditionally only been hobbyists or part-timers.

This is a bit alarming as I saw at this years Blade Show the continuation of a "knife glut". Great knives sitting on tables without buyers.
BIG names. World famous types.

There are too many custom knives currently being produced in general in relation to serious buyers and I see a major correction coming over the next few years. Only a small % of top makers will be able to earn a good living doing this unless they diversify and broaden their customer base. Sorry guys. I have seen this in other industries and the writing is on the wall.
Notice I said good living. If living with your parents and eating cereal 3 meals a day suits you, well thats OK too.

A good analogy is custom pistol marketplace. From the 70's until around 2000 a whole cottage industry of custom pistolsmiths thrived in the US as the work was specialized, needed, and in demand. The custom makers provided something that was not readily available at a reasonable price. Well, Les Baer & Wilson came along with many custom features already standard with high quality (sometimes higher than the one-man shops) and available and on the shelf. Then other semi-custom shops like Rock River, STI, Nowlin, came on the scene and eroded the market even further. Many of the Mom-n-Pop pistolsmithing shops closed.

In tandem, the semi-custom knife market has exploded since Chris Reeve, Strider and multiple other "mid-techs" and CNC jockeys have blurred the line between custom and production and actually given the buyer excellent, uniform quality, high performance, good resale value and ready availability. The latter is important since much of the buying is impulse driven and not really essential except for ego purposes. William Henry makes nicer knives than most custom folder makers. Not necessarily exclusive, but darn nice.

I regularly post quality knives on ebay and other places for sale. The market is flat and getting flatter.
 
striper28 said:
I think that the Abs and their knife judging criteria are forcing makers going for their Js stamp to make "safe" knives that all look the same.
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Let's assume you're right on this point. That would explain 5 "safe" knives - 10 if the maker goes on to test for his MS stamp. Surely the maker isn't "forced" by the ABS into any particular style for all the rest of the knives he makes in his career, before, after and in between his JS and MS test knives?

Roger
 
i don't have decades of experience to base my opinions on, but here are my thoughts.

there are some makers who work i honestly can't tell apart. they do identical styles of knives with almost identical embellishements and fittings. in some cases they are emulating their teachers and in other cases just hopping on the bandwagon. i avoid these, though i don't honestly see the market flooded with them.

ther are other makers who while adhearing to the popular styles (clip point bowies, drop point hunter, etc), have their own unique style of finishing their pieces. these, to my mind, make up the majority of the market. some makers have styles that appeal to me and some don't. i buy some of this range, though i don't anticipate it significantly appreciating in value.

lastly are the smiths who are pushing the boundries of the art. people who's work is instantly recognizable as their own, though their work is always evolving. these vanguards always make you look twice. even if you don't agree with their artistic sensibilities they are never boring. this is the type of work i prefer to collect, though there is relatively little of it out there and a lot of dollars chasing it.

ultimately though - i much prefer both collectors and makers who just buy/make what they want because they love it. rampant speculation in any market is ultimately bad for those who are really invested in it.
 
striper28 said:
I think that the Abs and their knife judging criteria are forcing makers going for their Js stamp to make "safe" knives that all look the same.
Click to expand...
On this point, I will agree. I will also agree with Roger that it is simply a test. Still, there is 'influence' in the ABS and if this is the standard, then you can expect a normal maker to stay closely within these guidelines.

Extreme example: Tai Goo would be laughed out of the room with his 'bush whacker' and wrapped handle--if he submitted it for his JS test. But, there isn't a MS out there that wouldn't agree his work is out of this world with talent and skill. I may be wrong, but this is exactly what I am hearing from the testing and inspection reports.

What WWG said is important to remember: If folks are buying said vanilla knives then keep at it. If they aren't... well, time to think out of the box.

Too many other great comments in this thread. This is just one I offer a perspective on.

Coop
 
Stephen, Thanks for bringing up this topic for discussion. I also appreciate the various responses and opinions.

I don't know enough to speak confidently about the 'market' one way or another but I do know a couple of things:
1) Collectors of all kinds follow a rather predictable pattern and the numbers of active collectors relate closely to population demographics. The peak spending years for the huge 'baby boomer' generation will end sometime after 2010 or so.
2) More important (to me) than the primary market for custom knives is the 'secondary market' meaning those people to whom I can sell knives in my collection when the time comes. The secondary market is nowhere near big enough.

Frankly, IMO, all the issues discussed above pale by comparison with the potential impact of these two factors.
Buddy T
 
ABS Bowies, Loveless dropped point hunters, the knife shows are full of them.
Why?
Because they sell. They have sold well, they do sell well and probably will continue to sell well.
There are alot of folks out there that want a custom/handmade knife but can't financially reach the big names.
Step up B list makers. Quality at an affordable price.
(Hey lots of guys can play baseball but only so many make it to the majors.
The Brooklyn Cyclones draw a decent crowd too.)

This is a small community and I like to think a forward thinking one.
If I had the blade budget that some of the respected members here have I'd say:
What I think is most important is that the knife has (as said in Blade)
"Face"
Hossom
Siska
Fisk
Ruana
Scagel
Moran
Hendricks
and on and on.

Their knives have a distinctive look that screams the knifemakers name.

Having said that, I don't think a collection would be complete without a Loveless style hunter or an ABS style bowie either.
 
What I think is most important is that the knife has (as said in Blade)"Face"
Hossom
Siska
Fisk
Ruana
Scagel
Moran
Hendricks
and on and on
Click to expand...


5 out of the 8 makers you listed do make knives that almost all look the same. 2 don't even forge!!
 
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