Custom Knife Opinion: A Public Health Warning

[Stephen F]

There have been a number of threads recently on the forum which are highly informative and thought provoking. But at the same time I think they should come with a "health warning". New collectors, established collectors and makers need to look to what is said, but still make their own decisions, informed by the heart as much as the head.

Why do I make such a statement?

My concern is as follows:

If we as collectors do not encourage individualism, risk, experimentation and the creative process in the makers, then the custom knife scene will turn into nothing more than a limited catalogue of handmade knives that suit the normalised, sanitised and populist designs of the mass.

• Collectors have very good insight into what they like personally, not what others like.
• Most dealers have a very good idea of what will sell "quickly", their primary buying criteria is a name(equates to position and promotion), quality, price, and broad appeal.
• The internet is a wonderful place, but if a small group of vociferous collectors (and I include myself in here) promote only what they like, and makers read that and try to pareto the most common aspects, what you come to is a "normalised" design, which can in itself be very appealing (see the BFB Design threads), but limited.
• Collectors are also not the real creative energy in this process. Many times collectors will latch on to design features and shapes that they have seen for the first time on a new and unique knife ... sometimes that new or unique knife is not what a collector wants because of other factors. But together with that maker, or other makers, they can go on to create something wonderful by evolving those new features. The important thing to note is that the collector probably will not have that idea until they have seen it on another knife. If makers only follow the likes and dislikes of collectors, eventually the new ideas will dry up.
• Custom knives are about individualism and creativity. Volume and price points are important, but if custom makers start off with that being the sole objective then perhaps they should be looking into starting their own manufacturing and production company.

So my final plea:

Collectors:
Voice opinion, comment, critique in the area of FnF, price, quality and design, contribute....... but we should not ridicule or belittle knives that are not to our taste. The ONLY time to insist compliance with our preferences is when we are parting with our own money or commissioning a specific piece. Take risks with your collection and accept the possibility of a few "grave yard" knives ...... if you eliminate risk you have to accept a lower return ...... and I don't mean monetary return, I mean fewer "creative, boundary bursting designs"

Makers:
Listen to collectors and dealers about fit, finish, quality, price ................... but don't take your design and material choices from them all the time. Develop a product portfolio in line with you position in the market and business life cycle: eg: 50- 70% good, well designed, well made knives that have common appeal. 25-15% similar designs with some embellishment and higher end materials. 25-15% Creative, new, risky knives ........ they'll either be "grave yard" knives, start a new trend, or become a family heirloom!

Dealers:
Continue to promote custom knives, make them available in a reasonable time period, bring new collectors to the scene, but don't try and guide all buyers toward your type of stock.


Probably to most collectors, makers, and dealers, all of the above is well understood and I will be accused of "teaching grandmothers to suck eggs" (whatever that means) and taking it all a bit too seriously, but I just had to get it off my chest.

Cheers,

Stephen

 

[David Schott]

I doubt im the only maker who feels a bit nervous to show/sell pieces when there are some VERY opinionated collectors here who talk about certain features/options as if theirs was the only opinion that mattered. Its one thing to say you prefer stainless over nickel silver, or stag over camel bone...its another to talk about it in a way that is insulting and implies stupidity on those who disagree, actually make knives with those features, or buy knives with those features on purpose. All being even, Id rather have an environment like this where we can get honest opinions, though!

Plus, no one has ever said collecters need to buy from all makers, and no one has said makers have to sell to all collectors. I know for sure there are some folks here that I'd prefer to work with than others...its a two way street. I think its important to remeber "Collectors are also not the real creative energy in this process" and to view something like knifemaking for what it is. Creative professions have never flourished under the eyes of picky enthusiasts. Much positive change has come from from those who do things or see things differently. I've found stagnance never breeds improvement except in the details. Luckily, I dont make nearly enough knives to be in most people's radar enough for opinions like this to hurt me at the moment. I make what I like and find buyers who agree and I am always happy so long as they are...Lately, ive had mixed fellings about the feedback ive been seeing on the boards. Love fest or public ridicule is a tough fork in the road to want to pass through, be they maker or buyer.

Look at the most recent strider thread in this forum. Imagine if you were the guy who loved that knife enough to pay for it...your opinion matters just as much as the elitist collectors or anyone else with cash in their pocket, but now how would you feel about yourself, your purchase, or coming back to the forum to share your enthusiasm? What positive would come from it as a buyer? Forget about being the maker....

Maybe its just too early on a sunday but I read a few threads and walked away with a somewhat different opinion than i had walking away from threads in the past. Maybe its different reading a specific comment on a specific knife vs hearing broads swipes at anything and everything that remotely differs from what criteria that collector justifies their purchase with. Ill probably re-read this tomorrow and feel like a tool, but makers have some off the cuff opinions, too....so why not share em. Take this opinion, as all others, with a grain of salt...maybe thats all anyone needs to do is to remember that many strict opinions of collectors are based off quite a bit of monetary investment. If you collected only knives with oval guards, you'd probably try to explain to everyone why oval guards are the only way to make guards, too....

 

[Don Hanson III]

Well said, both Stephen and David :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Joss]

I completely disagree. For starters, makers do not pay attention to our posts and wishes most of the time. Yes, there are a few exceptions here & there, but even makers who are on those forums don't always care about what we say. So I don't think we're at risk of restraining the imagination of makers.

Experimentation is dangerous, and makers often fail to experiment (from a design standpoint) because both them and their customers are a conservative bunch. Personally, I see more makers responding "I don't think this suggestion would work on my stuff" than some saying, "hm... That's an interesting challenge, let's see what I can do with it".

Second, the "don't ridicule" advice is probablly good generally speaking, but I think that different standards apply to a maker trying something new, and a maker milking an obvious fad producing and selling at high price pieces that are obviously heavy & difficult to use.

 

[Broos]

Thanks Stephen & David. Well said.

 

[OldPhysics]

I don't think there's much danger of restraining creativity.

I've spent my adult life "herding cats" -- that is, trying to form creative scientists and engineers into working teams to solve big problems. As a young man, I was a member of those teams. Needless to say, I've ALWAYS been very, very busy...

My observation is that creative people MUST have an outlet. Their feelings can be hurt, sometimes easily, but they will always return to their outlet. There is a strong inner drive at work in such people.

I hope the makers who pay attention to these threads, some of the most creative people in the knife world, will pay attention to Stephen and David...and put the comments of people such as them (myself included) into a reasonable context.

If you ask us what we like and don't like -- we will answer, to the best of our ability. But don't make a 'big thing' out of it. None of us are 'authoritative' -- none of us can speak for any majority of collectors. Read our input, consider it -- in context! -- and move on!

You know we'll continue to love and support your work.

 

[Kohai999]

I spoke with Steve Dunn about the Feather pattern bowie at Reno, letting him know that the opinions expressed by me was certainly not intended to be taken as a personal attack.

You know what he said? "Makers just have to toughen up, and not get their panties in a wad when someone expresses a negative opinion". I thought that was really mature and professional.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Bruce Evans]

Well said:thumbup:

I do believe that more makers listen here than people think,most just dont know how to respond or dont want to....

As a maker I look at the list of dealbusters and have to wonder how the collecter ever gets to buy a knife....

If you look at that thread and realisticaly take every buster mentioned from everyone and make one big giant list and hand it to a maker and say "make me a knife without any of these things on the list" and I bet you dont get very many that will even try....

I can make craft/art objects and sell them with a whole lot less critiscism than I can ever do making knives,Artists are always that artists and do things the way they vision it and that is what makes them different than the other artists.But that is also why the term"Starving Artist" came about also...

I could make more money with a cheap pickup and a chainsaw and going out cutting firewood than I do making knives,But I like making knives a lot better.Not everybody will agree with my visions of my knives,but some will.Reading what people like is a good way to get a idea of what the market likes so you can make money,but if you dont follow your heart and make something new and different the whole business of knifemaking will get stale.

Just think if Moran and a few others followed suit and gave up smithing back years ago and never had a dream of making welded steel blades,because people said dont do that or I wont buy anything done like that ..... Our country was built on dreams and I feel we still need the dreamers and risk takers or we will never have another big legend come along with that new unique thing that turns our whole knifemaking community on its ear,and starts the next generation....We need the Loveless's and Morans and Scagels and Randalls ...... Now who will be the next world known name?.....Without dreamers and risk takers will will never have one...

Ok I am off my soap box

Bruce

 

[Don Hanson III]

There's a thread in the knifemakers area about the "deal breaker" thread here. This is what I had to say about it over there and pretty much sums up my view on it.

"A lot of good info (and a lot of opinions) in that thread. The "fit, finish and pricing your work" is good advise but you can't take it all as "the only way to make knives". I feel you should make what you want and if it sells quick and a lot of folks like it, ya done good. If it doesn't sell and nobody likes it, then don't do that again. I do this for a living and will not let a thread like that dictate what I make but I do read, listen, learn and weed out the BS."

 

[Joss]

Well said Don. This is exactly the right attitude.

 

[Stephen F]

Well said Don. This is exactly the right attitude.

Joss ...... Don is saying what I'm saying ...... but you "completely disagree" with me!

Stephen

 

[RogerP]

"A lot of good info (and a lot of opinions) in that thread. The "fit, finish and pricing your work" is good advise but you can't take it all as "the only way to make knives". I feel you should make what you want and if it sells quick and a lot of folks like it, ya done good. If it doesn't sell and nobody likes it, then don't do that again. I do this for a living and will not let a thread like that dictate what I make but I do read, listen, learn and weed out the BS."

I look at this response and ask myself - why doesn't everyone else see it this way? Sure, if you added up everyone's "deal-breakers" and made an exhaustive list you'd never be able to make a knife to pass muster. But that would only be if you chose to undertake the Quixotic goal of trying to please everyone. A most ambitious undertaking, to say the least.

Roger

 

[RL]

Collectors:
Voice opinion, comment, critique in the area of FnF, price, quality and design, contribute....... but we should not ridicule or belittle knives that are not to our taste. The ONLY time to insist compliance with our preferences is when we are parting with our own money or commissioning a specific piece.

good post...with some good advice that could be of benefit to many

RL

 

[bradley hooper]

I just started making knives a few years ago and my collection is small at best, but I do know what I want in a knife to add to my collection, however, if I was to contract a maker to make me a knife, as a maker I wouldn't dare try to limit his artistic abilities. I would give him the measurements and proportions, possibly some material preferences, and that whether its meant to be on my hip or on my wall, it would hold up if used.

Every maker has something that he or she wants to put on all of their knives, that doesn't make it a good idea, but usually they have tested it and they know what their knives will and won't do. As a collector I would look at the knives that they have made in the past, consider the specifications that they normally go by and understand what I will get when I buy one of their knives. I'm not saying don't give them something new to do, just understand that if they put their twist on it, or if they change a small feature to make the knife look, feel, or work better, than so be it. If I'm gonna pay someone to make something that they wouldn't use themselves, I'll call Jim Frost and save the cash. But if I want an original piece made by a certain maker, I'll understand when they say what the cost is and make sure that its according to 1. the materials used and 2. the difficulty of the piece.

Telling someone that they screwed something up is alright, if they can fix it fine, if they can't that's fine too, but they need to make the next one better. If they don't then they want to stay right where they are and not get better which means that they should find a new profession. Understanding that a maker is a human being who is imperfect, and must strive to be perfect, knowing still that it is something that they will only be when God brings them home is something that every collector should remember when looking at a knife. I can't make the perfect knife, I can't even make them better than some of the guys who started making them later than me, I have finished eight and liked only three well enough to sell or give away, but I have tried to be humble enough to learn from my mistakes in order to correct them on the next piece. Do I want to make the perfect knife, no, do I want someone else to make the perfect knife, no. Why? Cause when the perfect knife exists, then there is no use to make another one, or to design a new one.

For collectors, try to make a knife sometime and then show it to me or even someone who doesn't know anything about them and see how many mistakes there are. Then, fix them all on no. 2, or even by no.10, the collectors who make them know what is wrong and and don't tend to knitpick, but the ones who have never put the time, blood sweat and tears(and I mean all of that literally) into making a blade, then getting a guard and handle on it, just will never know the trouble that it really is. Even if they hang around a maker's shop, they can still go home when it gets frustrating, we can't cause we are home. That is what we do and the finished product, the fact that it is our blood sweat and tears in that knife that you may call a piece of crap, is still beautiful to us when we make it. Five or ten years from now, compared to what we are doing at that time, should look like a piece of crap, IN COMPARISON.

Knives in a particular market should be evaluated for what they are, not for what you want. When you pick up a knife at a show, and it has filework, and that is the only thing you don't like then guess what, you can get a knife made just like it without the filework probably cheaper, just remember that you didn't commision that knife and try not to turn up your nose just cause it has filework or a raised choil or camel bone. Those knives weren't made with you in mind or they would be different. They were made that way cause the maker in his own opinion thought that it made the knife something special, something that might be set apart from the rest. And that is what every custom knife should be. Whether made for a collector, or a show, it should be what it was made to be. I mean no offense to anyone and I hope that I have contributed in a way that is progressive to the thread, I just wanted to say what I felt.

 

[barrabas74]

I just started making knives a few years ago and my collection is small at best, but I do know what I want in a knife to add to my collection, however, if I was to contract a maker to make me a knife, as a maker I wouldn't dare try to limit his artistic abilities. I would give him the measurements and proportions, possibly some material preferences, and that whether its meant to be on my hip or on my wall, it would hold up if used. Every maker has something that he or she wants to put on all of their knives, that doesn't make it a good idea, but usually they have tested it and they know what their knives will and won't do. .

As a collector I would look at the knives that they have made in the past, consider the specifications that they normally go by and understand what I will get when I buy one of their knives. I'm not saying don't give them something new to do, just understand that if they put their twist on it, or if they change a small feature to make the knife look, feel, or work better, than so be it. If I'm gonna pay someone to make something that they wouldn't use themselves, I'll call Jim Frost and save the cash. But if I want an original piece made by a certain maker, I'll understand when they say what the cost is and make sure that its according to 1. the materials used and 2. the difficulty of the piece. Telling someone that they screwed something up is alright, if they can fix it fine, if they can't that's fine too, but they need to make the next one better.

If they don't then they want to stay right where they are and not get better which means that they should find a new profession. Understanding that a maker is a human being who is imperfect, and must strive to be perfect, knowing still that it is something that they will only be when God brings them home is something that every collector should remember when looking at a knife. I can't make the perfect knife, I can't even make them better than some of the guys who started making them later than me, I have finished eight and liked only three well enough to sell or give away, but I have tried to be humble enough to learn from my mistakes in order to correct them on the next piece. Do I want to make the perfect knife, no, do I want someone else to make the perfect knife, no. Why? Cause when the perfect knife exists, then there is no use to make another one, or to design a new one.

For collectors, try to make a knife sometime and then show it to me or even someone who doesn't know anything about them and see how many mistakes there are. Then, fix them all on no. 2, or even by no.10, the collectors who make them know what is wrong and and don't tend to knitpick, but the ones who have never put the time, blood sweat and tears(and I mean all of that literally) into making a blade, then getting a guard and handle on it, just will never know the trouble that it really is. Even if they hang around a maker's shop, they can still go home when it gets frustrating, we can't cause we are home. That is what we do and the finished product, the fact that it is our blood sweat and tears in that knife that you may call a piece of crap, is still beautiful to us when we make it. Five or ten years from now, compared to what we are doing at that time, should look like a piece of crap, IN COMPARISON.

Knives in a particular market should be evaluated for what they are, not for what you want. When you pick up a knife at a show, and it has filework, and that is the only thing you don't like then guess what, you can get a knife made just like it without the filework probably cheaper, just remember that you didn't commision that knife and try not to turn up your nose just cause it has filework or a raised choil or camel bone. Those knives weren't made with you in mind or they would be different. They were made that way cause the maker in his own opinion thought that it made the knife something special, something that might be set apart from the rest. And that is what every custom knife should be. Whether made for a collector, or a show, it should be what it was made to be. I mean no offense to anyone and I hope that I have contributed in a way that is progressive to the thread, I just wanted to say what I felt.

You need some spaces in this post man, makes it much easier to read. Just trying to help out. Thanks for your post though and I understand what you mean. I am an amateur maker myself using both stock removal and forging. I do it very part time and really just for me. But until I did, I never fully appreciated what goes into it.

As for commenting on custom knives, its tough to do because you dont want to feel like your belitteling someones work or calling them a cheat because you think they charged too much. There's many knifemakers who I feel charge to much but hay, they sell so who am I. I do comment on looks and design many times but its tough to do w/o seeming too critical.

 

[bradley hooper]

There that should read a little better. Sorry about that. Yeah I see what you mean too. I, as a maker, am open to constructive critisism and welcome it at every chance I get. I want to get better, which means I want my flaws pointed out to me so I can learn to fix it. But some of these things that are being picked on are more according to the makers artistic features to the knife rather than on design or fit and finish.

If a maker can get the fit and finish right on their knives and it feels good and has a good design, then where else do they go. That's where learning to engrave or do filework becomes a new step. My fit and finish is mediocre at best, which is why I don't sell knives yet, but I still am practicing things like filework and maybe some wire inlay in the near future, so that when it gets there I will have a knife that is as useful as it is pleasing to look at.

There is a great deal of useless and unconstructive critisism out there and about things that in all honesty don't really matter. If every knife came out without any flaws or just perfectly according to everyone's opinion of how they should be, then they would all be the same. Just a stock piece with either a clip point or a drop point, pins or no pin, stag or bone, just another piece on an assembly line. And that is the worry of most makers who enjoy making, getting stuck making the same thing over and over.

Flaws happen, designs change for better and worse, and sometimes things get done that you don't like, but that doesn't mean pick it up at a show rave about the profile and snarl as you set it down when you see the file work. An ok piece wouldn't turn the head of a collector that really appreciated knives but a great knife would. One little error or "design flaw" wouldn't make that knife any less than what it really is in my opinion. It makes it unique, one of a kind, and that is what a custom is by definition.