Custom Knife Orders - Some Thoughts

[Kevin Jones]

Well if there can be a silver lining to the current financial crisis as far as custom knives are concerned, perhaps it’s that many maker’s special order lists seem to be getting shorter and some makers are catching up to the point of opening up their order list. Good news for collectors, at least for the ones that can still afford knives.

From what I have heard, this is both the result of collectors canceling orders and a reduction in new knife orders. It’s been my un-popular opinion that the large quantities of custom knives we have on order with makers has had a negative affect on supply & demand thus a negative affect on the secondary market even before the current financial downturn.

Yes, we collectors (myself included of course) love to order knives. I guess because it gives us the opportunity to be involved in the process and allows us to get just the style, elements, materials and embellishments we want in a custom knife. Though ordering a knife doesn’t guarantee it.
In some cases we will wait patiently for many years for a knife from our favorite makers. I myself don’t mind waiting as long as I’m confident that a knife will eventually be delivered on or around the time promised.

I believe it important for collectors to realize that special orders are only a part of a maker’s overall production as he/she still has to make knives for shows and other commitments. I believe the makers that keep accurate order list and schedule their time/production efficiently are generally more successful and keep a more loyal client base. Some makers produce knives intermittently, or in very limited quantities or make knives for a period then just quite for an undetermined duration. Obviously nothing wrong with this, but it does surprise me how some of these makers keep such a loyal following even to the point where some collectors seem to chase or beg them for knives or will wait for years while knowing the makers aren’t making knives.

In drafting this thread, I just wanted to communicate some observations and point out that we may see short and long term benefits as a result of these current hard times.

Please feel free to comment and/or challenge my points as I know some will be in disagreement. And as always, thank you for your participation and the sharing of your knowledge.

 

[RogerP]

I'm not sure that full time makers who sell knives to feed and house their family will rejoice at cancelled existing orders and diminished future orders, but hey, dance a jig if it makes you happy.

Roger

 

[Fort Henry Custom Knives]

From what I have heard, this is both the result of collectors concealing orders and a reduction in new knife orders.

Kevin, could you clarify this statement, what do you mean when you say "Collectors concealing orders"?

I believe it important for collectors to realize that special orders are only a part of a maker’s overall production as he/she still has to make knives for shows and other commitments. I believe the makers that keep accurate order list and schedule their time/production efficiently are generally more successful and keep a more loyal client base.

You are right on here. It all comes back to the Maker, can he/she manage the logistics / juggling of these aspects, keep everyone informed and happy and be honest with the timetables and delivery dates. Some collectors forget all the different facets that are NOT involved with their order.

Some makers produce knives intermittently, or in very limited quantities or make knives for a period then just quite for an undetermined duration. Obviously nothing wrong with this, but it does surprise me how some of these makers keep such a loyal following even to the point where some collectors seem to chase or beg them for knives or will wait for years while knowing the makers aren’t making knives.

This is something that I have wondered to myself for quite a while. There are many Makers who have chosen to pursue the strategy that you speak of - they work and are very creative at garnering a larger following (perhaps by Hosting a small private Show, perhaps by Teaching a School for other Makers, perhaps even by Hiding a knife via Geo-Cache and creating a contest) and even though they do all these things and more they do not strive to produce more knives, in fact they may even decrease the amount of knives they make the larger their following becomes.

I be only stating the obvious here but I feel that this is nothing more than a long term marketing strategy - when the Maker finally does produce a few knives they are snatched up quickly usually by those that are in the Makers back pocket at all times - this leads other Collectors to feel they need to occupy this position in order to get a knife in the future... so what does this do... increase the following. Many of the finally delivered knives are quickly resold on the aftermarket for a large profit... what does that do,.... (say it with me) increase the following by bringing in new followers who are hoping to make a quick buck.

No animosity meant in the way I view this type of thinkg, but I will say that I don't subscribe to it nor will I genuflect a a Maker's table or to his ego just to get a knife.

Hope all that made sense.

 

[Ed Caffrey]

There is no doubt that the current economic state has affected many maker's waiting lists. Speaking for myself, I am only a few knives from being "caught up", which is a position I have never experienced since going full time in 2000.

Orders are still coming in, but it has slowed to a mere trickle. Thats simply a sign of the times.

Will the current situation shorten wait times for buyer? Yes and Possibly No. Yes for lower end, mid range, and "standard" models that a maker may offer. These types of knives tend to be the ones where a maker is on "auto pilot"....meaning that they have the process down, and producing those pieces are more a mechanical exercise than anything.

When it comes to higher end, one of a kind collector pieces, a maker must acquire/achieve a special level of inspiration/creativity that is not required with those knives that are "standard". By this I mean that there are always unique processes and skills required to create those one of a kind wonders. When I examine a special order, higher end piece's design, I always take into account anything required that may not be routine for me. Does the construction require a method or process that I have not done in a long time, or never? Will I have to create a new process in order to make all the parts work in the design? And if so, how many times will it take me to get it right?
If the client is not detail specific, I find it much more enjoyable to create a higher end piece. My favorite collector pieces to produce are those where the client places the order by saying something like.... "I'd like a Mosaic Bowie, with fossil ivory and blued fittings. With everything else be creative....and keep it under $XXXX. This is a knife that I get very excited about building! I stay within the parameters the client has laid down, but also have the freedom to be creative. An order of this type would likely be finished quicker, and would also come out far better than one where the client dictates every detail.

Why say that? Because its not always about how many orders are ahead of a given one. It about the maker looking forward to building the knife, and getting a chance to be creative. Even if a maker's waiting list was short, I suspect that most experienced Makers would give themselves some extra time for the inevitable "goof ups" that will always occur when creating new processes and methods. Sure, we still have to eat and pay the bills, but very few Makers rely on Collector grade pieces for that....it generally comes from other types of knives.

I really don't think the "hard times" for makers has fully hit yet....but its not far away. I also believe that this period of uncertainty will force some makers to seek another career, but those who are able to hang on during these dark times will come out better on the other side.

OK, back to the issue on the table. I think that waiting times for lower to mid-range pieces have/will decrease, but am not fully convinced that higher end collector pieces will come any quicker. At least not from the majority of makers. (there are always the exceptions) There are just too many other factors that come into play besides the length of a waiting list.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I'm not sure that full time makers who sell knives to feed and house their family will rejoice at cancelled existing orders and diminished future orders, but hey, dance a jig if it makes you happy.

Roger

Roger, don't see where I stated I was particularly happy. However I do tend to look for positives in bad situations rather than dwell on the negatives.

However, now that you mention it, I suppose there's collectors that have been waiting for 3-4 years or more for a knife from their favorite makers that may be happy to some extent.
I remember several threads where collector after collector were complaining about long waits up to seven years and even never getting knives.

And in regard to makers, I suppose there's some that are under pressure from LONG waiting list that may welcome a little relief to allow them to improve their business and perhaps experiment with deferent designs and processes.
Don Hanson just commented in another thread how long waiting list can get makers in trouble.

Like you said, Joe. I've seen too many good makers disappear after getting covered up with orders. After a few years, if / or when they come out of their cave, they have a hard time selling knives. People forget and times change......

Your sarcastic post was not unexpected.

 

[Kevin Jones]

From what I have heard, this is both the result of collectors concealing orders and a reduction in new knife orders.

Kevin, could you clarify this statement, what do you mean when you say "Collectors concealing orders"?

I have hear directly from quite a few makers I'm in contact with and from fellow collectors and dealers who I consider reliable sources that some collectors are canceling orders, multiple orders and/or longstanding orders. The reasons are that some can no longer afford them or just would rather not take delivery of these knives considering current financial times.
I will not of course say who these makers are, but expect some may speak up here.

OH, sorry. I now see the reason for your question as I misspelled "canceling".

 

[Fort Henry Custom Knives]

Sorry, I thought it was CONCEALING orders, not cancelling orders. Just didn't get it right when I read it. Now I understand.

 

[peterinct]

Interesting topic in this thread, and although I am not in the enviable situation to order custom knives from the makers, a question that this thread evokes to me is:

Say you waited whatever amount of time for a knife ordered from a maker that was given a good amount of artistic freedom, and upon delivery, you just plain don't like it.

Do you bite the bullet and sell it, possibly a loss, or speak the truth and tell the maker it is NOT what you hoped for and try to work something out?

Peter

 

[Kevin Jones]

Interesting topic in this thread, and although I am not in the enviable situation to order custom knives from the makers, a question that this thread evokes to me is:

Say you waited whatever amount of time for a knife ordered from a maker that was given a good amount of artistic freedom, and upon delivery, you just plain don't like it.

Do you bite the bullet and sell it, possibly a loss, or speak the truth and tell the maker it is NOT what you hoped for and try to work something out?

Peter

Thanks Ed, Hillbillenigma. Very good points.

Peter, that's a great question. To take it a little farther, suppose you were very specific as to design yet the knife does turn out the way you imagined it?

An order can present risk.

 

[sheathmaker]

Once again this question does not apply specifically to me, but since my little comtribution ties directly to the knife market, I have a keen interest in threads of this kind.

As I type this, I for the first time since way before Blade 2008, am "caught up" having shipped my last two orders just a few moments ago. I do have incoming knives and orders and just received a phone call from Canada for another commission but the backlog list on my wall is blank at this particular moment. Now all of this comes after the most busy and successful five or six months since I've been making sheaths. I almost welcome a little slow down from a purely selfish standpoint, but based on history and recent communication I have no reason to believe the slow down will last long.

All of this ties directly back to the knife market, because if the knives slow down, then so should my end of it, but that it not the indication I see in the near term. There is also one other factor, that I should consider and that is that there are a heck of a lot of Makers and Collectors out there spread over relatively few sheath makers by comparison, so a very slight slow down on my part could be indicitive of a much greater slow down on an individual maker/collector basis.

I do know that for at least the very near term, my turn around time will be back to what is was five or six months ago.

Paul

 

[RogerP]

Roger, don't see where I stated I was particularly happy.

Well, you did describe it as "good news" for collectors. And, um, you're a collector. It's not a real big stretch to say that people are generally "happy" to receive "good news".

And in regard to makers, I suppose there's some that are under pressure from LONG waiting list that may welcome a little relief to allow them to improve their business and perhaps experiment with deferent designs and processes.

If a maker finds himself in the position of being overburndened by a long wait list, the "problem" is not that too many orders were placed by collectors, but that too many orders were accepted by the maker. Some makers know when to say "enough is enough" and close their lists.

Of course, it's a nice problem to have - more collectors wanting your work than you have the ability to produce. I wonder how many makers - as a percentage of total makers - that this applies to. I suspect that number is VERY small indeed. Just as I supect this notion of a "problem" of "too many" orders is completely overblown.

Your sarcastic post was not unexpected.

Neither was your condescension.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

As I type this, I for the first time since way before Blade 2008, am "caught up" having shipped my last two orders just a few moments ago. I do have incoming knives and orders and just received a phone call from Canada for another commission ...

That's funny, I just placed a phone call from Canada to a Texas sheathmaker for a custom order - what a coincidence!

Roger

 

[JParanee]

It is all relative the guy's ordering million plus dollar sportfishing boats are still ordering those boats it is the economy or budget line boats that are feeling the crunch. The same goes for the custom knife world the big names will keep getting orders it is the less known or less expensive makers that will feel it more. But to some degree I know that I have been when I have to feed my addiction instead of buying a 1000 dollar knife i will by a 500 dollar one so I am still spending to certain degree so you see my point the wheels will keep on spinning everything goes up and down.. By the way I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving

 

[jdm61]

It is all relative the guy's ordering million plus dollar sportfishing boats are still ordering those boats it is the economy or budget line boats that are feeling the crunch. The same goes for the custom knife world the big names will keep getting orders it is the less known or less expensive makers that will feel it more. But to some degree I know that I have been when I have to feed my addiction instead of buying a 1000 dollar knife i will by a 500 dollar one so I am still spending to certain degree so you see my point the wheels will keep on spinning everything goes up and down.. By the way I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving

Actually, Joe, Hatteras' sportfisherman production line has been shut down for a while and last I heard, Viking was only making a few 74's. The big dealers down in South Flordai haven't beenable to move anything, new or used for quite a while. Remind me to tell you what our old Monterrey ended up selling for after being on the market for 2 years!!!!! The crunch his those guys before the rest of us. Two big spikes in fuel prices and the collapse of the building market in late '06 hurt the boat industry bad. The guys at HMY say that this is actually looking worse than the industry collapse in 1999-2000 because of the recesssion and luxury tax.

 

[JParanee]

Actually, Joe, Hatteras' sportfisherman production line has been shut down for a while and last I heard, Viking was only making a few 74's. The big dealers down in South Flordai haven't beenable to move anything, new or used for quite a while. Remind me to tell you what our old Monterrey ended up selling for after being on the market for 2 years!!!!! The crunch his those guys before the rest of us. Two big spikes in fuel prices and the collapse of the building market in late '06 hurt the boat industry bad. The guys at HMY say that this is actually looking worse than the industry collapse in 1999-2000 because of the recesssion and luxury tax.

Thanks Joe, maybe I made a bad comparison but I think you get my general point that alot of the big dogs will keep buying and spending in the industry.

 

[T.A.DAVISON]

No animosity meant in the way I view this type of thinkg, but I will say that I don't subscribe to it nor will I genuflect a a Maker's table or to his ego just to get a knife.
Hope all that made sense.

From what I have seen here, of the makers on this Forum and being one my self. There is not a one that I can think of, that would expect you to, or want you to....
Hope all that made sense?

Todd

 

[RogerP]

From what I have seen here, of the makers on this Forum and being one my self. There is not a one that I can think of, that would expect you to, or want you to....
Hope all that made sense?

Todd

Agreed.

Roger

 

[Keith Montgomery]

The problem is that I may not be able to take advantage of makers having shorter waiting lists. I think I am going to stay with my current orders. A couple of days ago I put in my last order for awhile. I'm afraid I am going to be one of the people that help in reducing the workload for makers. I will still spend, but there will be more caution on my part in where my money is going. It would be nice to have so much money that the current economic situation wouldn't be of a big concern to me, but that is definitely not the case.

 

[sheathmaker]

nor will I genuflect a a Maker's table
QUOTE]

You should never , ever genuflect at a maker's table. It makes them irritable and the stain may not even come out.

 

[severedthumbs]

i think it is bad business for makers to have atrocious waiting lists. 8+ year waits is just stupid. I mean really, just stop taking orders. One thing though, money talks with a lot of makers. u send the cash, u get bumped up