Custom Knife Orders - Some Thoughts

severedthumbs said:
i think it is bad business for makers to have atrocious waiting lists. 8+ year waits is just stupid. I mean really, just stop taking orders. One thing though, money talks with a lot of makers. u send the cash, u get bumped up
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That's not cool, but how do you guys feel about makers bumping up their better customers?
Or better said, do you feel a collector that buys 3-4 knives a year from a particular maker should be bumped ahead of one that may buy one every 2-3 years?
 
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Kevin Jones said:
That's not cool, but how do you guys feel about makers bumping up their better customers?
Or better said, do you feel a collector that buys 3-4 knives a year from a maker should be bumped ahead of one that my buys one every 2-3 years?
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One maker I respect the hell out of is Snody! that cat decided to take control of his business and not let the collectors run it. He makes what he wants, his creativity is not hindered by having to make the same knife 2000000 times.

here is what the man says, best business plan ever if u ask me. I got this in an email some time back, I hope it is ok to post. I think it is brilliant.

It was most certainly a Staus Symbol in the industry to "Have a five year backlog"

Wow!! What security!! What a great deal!! If I work hard maybe someday I can have a "Five Year Backlog" and all they great things that go along with it!!!

Fast Forward about a year and the Internet is Exploding!!!!!

Knife Forums, Knifemaker Websites, Knife Purveyors, Virtual Knife Shows, Knifemaking Communities, Online Knife Magazines, etc, etc, etc!!!

The internet was on fire and any knifemaker who had a decent website was hooked up like a sled dog. Seriously just about any knifemaker who had a cool site was completely covered up in work.

I had an article come out that year and in one weekend my backlog went from 6 months to well over 5 years!! In one night (Saturday) I received over 170 orders. Many of these orders were for multiple knives in fact one order alone was for 148 pieces and eventually increased to 172 individual knives and sheaths!!

Fast Forward a couple years!!!

The Internet is Saturated with Knifemakers and the Thinning has begun!!!

All the guys who had the nice websites and crummy knives are now on their way out. Most of you remember some of the Legends of the day
Blade, Corkum, Griffith and many, many more who were ultimately ousted as frauds.

At this point I am so deep in orders that I cant see light!! I have suspended taking new orders yet I still receive money in envelopes, checks, email orders and multiple phone calls daily. I send money and checks back to people, I respond to dozens of emails daily saying "thank you but I am not taking orders" I answer the phone several times a day to say "thanks but I am not taking orders" I attend knife shows and sell out in 10 minutes then spend two days telling friends and clients "sorry not taking orders"

I discover new methods of knifemaking and new materials that I want to explore but I am working on an order for 172 Carolina Skinners with identical wood handles. Three years into the process I am building orders that are four years old. I continue to get further behind because I keep accepting "special orders". Many individuals become frustrated while waiting five years for a knife that was promised in three and rightfully so. Some individuals just go NUTS and leave multiple messages screaming and cussing even though I did not accept their deposits or have any of their money.

I respond to emails over a five year period providing status, excuses, explaining why I am behind, accepting modifications to old orders, handle changes, blade an inch longer, etc, etc, etc,

The knife order that was placed in 2001 is now nearly five years old.
Lets say for argumnents sake that the actual knife requires 10 hours labor to complete. I now have close to 10 hours of correspondence associated with the piece and I havent even started it yet. In fact I just fell another month behind because I have to move to a different state and set up a new shop.

Now a second Thinning is taking place, this time its not the scam artist knifemaker.

This time its the Honest Knifemaker who is swamped in three to five year old orders. He quoted prices when the orders were placed and he intends to honor those prices. The problem is fuel costs have nearly doubled, Material Costs in many cases have increased 300 percent, rent is up, insurance is up, health care is up, machinery costs and consumables are up 30 to 40% and homie is working seven days a week digging himself in deeper and deeper with each knife he completes.

The market has completely changed but homie is still building 2001 patterns with ivory micarta handles because he got 200 orders for them after his article ran in Blade Magazine.

He sadly announces on his favorite knifemaking forum that he is going out of business.

He lost his ass and now he is working in Walmart!!!

I have been a fulltime knifemaker for the past four years.

My entire income is 100% knife related and my shop is open to the public.

I have struggled with taking orders, suspending orders, taking orders, suspending orders and I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible for me to manage a succesful operation while adhering to the "business model" of knifemaker who accepts orders.

The past four years have clearly demsontrated to me that the "knifemakers business model" of taking orders and maintaining a multi-year backlog is antiquated and no longer an acceptable method for SnodyKnives to employ.

I have never accepted deposits and most peoples lives change over a Five Year Period. When you get that Skinner with Mastadon Ivory and the Frog Sheath finished and find out that Mr Jones(who waited five years) just got a divorce and is homeless that opens up a whole other issue. What do you do with all the people who back out of an order?? I certainly dont blame anyone because Lord Knows I have had my share of bad luck but how do you manage this issue and operate a profitable business. Personally I would rather just forget the whole "order fiasco knifemaker business model" and sell them when they are finished. That way if a client has the money he can get the piece within a week. He can get it while he is still excited not five years later after his Ex put him in the poor house.

The decision to never again accept orders is about survival for SnodyKnives.

SnodyKnives will move forward with small limited batches of collectible, modern, high performance knives that will be offered for sale only after they have been completed and are ready to ship.

I will use SnodyLand to preview each of these Limited Batches.

We will maintain a Notification List and contact individuals when a model they are interested is being constructed.

When a new material shows up on the market I will be able to immediately incorporate it into my designs. I will constantly introduce new patterns and designs that I feel reflect current advancements in materials and technology. I am talking about New Designs Weekly, not every couple of years.




I have an obligation to every individual who purchases a Snody Knife to work hard and continue to promote the "Snody" brand and insure that their knife will hold its value in the aftermarket.
 
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Keith Montgomery said:
It would be nice to have so much money that the current economic situation wouldn't be of a big concern to me, but that is definitely not the case.
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I don't think there are going to be many people in the situation you describe, Keith. And I am quite sure that most of the other Collectors who frequent this forum are in the same boat as you.

Personally, I'm in about the same boat as I've been always been in, financially speaking, so I don't have much to get used to. I will continue to purchase 'inexpensive' customs as I can afford them, and actually my ability to afford them is on the increase, (which actually isn't saying much:)).

I personally think that high end makers who start fabricating, in volume, simple pieces for under $500, and a couple lower price points, will do well in this environment. Counting on a few wealthy patrons to make up your profit is not going to be very lucrative very soon.

In fact, I don't think that it wouldn't be unreasonable for some makers to cancel outstanding orders in the higher price level, unless a deposit is made. I know we've talked about this in the past, but I think it's important for the guys making the high end knives to insure themselves against getting stuck for the costs incurred when a patron pulls the plug.

This financial situation changes many things, and savvy business sense is going to enable some to make gains, while those without leave the scene. It could very well be financial realities, like the one we're about to have to get used to, which create that 'legend' status, in that they afford those makers with good sense the opportunity to create knives with very little competition eating at their notoriety/sales.

Just putting that out there. Again:)
 
Lorien said:
I don't think there are going to be many people in the situation you describe, Keith. And I am quite sure that most of the other Collectors who frequent this forum are in the same boat as you.

Personally, I'm in about the same boat as I've been always been in, financially speaking, so I don't have much to get used to. I will continue to purchase 'inexpensive' customs as I can afford them, and actually my ability to afford them is on the increase, (which actually isn't saying much:)).

I personally think that high end makers who start fabricating, in volume, simple pieces for under $500, and a couple lower price points, will do well in this environment. Counting on a few wealthy patrons to make up your profit is not going to be very lucrative very soon.

In fact, I don't think that it wouldn't be unreasonable for some makers to cancel outstanding orders in the higher price level, unless a deposit is made. I know we've talked about this in the past, but I think it's important for the guys making the high end knives to insure themselves against getting stuck for the costs incurred when a patron pulls the plug.

This financial situation changes many things, and savvy business sense is going to enable some to make gains, while those without leave the scene. It could very well be financial realities, like the one we're about to have to get used to, which create that 'legend' status, in that they afford those makers with good sense the opportunity to create knives with very little competition eating at their notoriety/sales.

Just putting that out there. Again:)
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OR, you could always explore the option of patronizing some new makers who will, no doubt, be able to provide a slightly less "simple" piece for under that magic $500 limit:D
 
Exactly right, Joe!

I hadn't read that post from severedthumbs, but now that I have I must thank you for posting Mike Snody's letter. I was wondering where he's gone, as he used to post here fairly often. Obviously, he's a smart guy and knows what he's doing. His knives are awesome, too. So, thanks, severedthumbs (what the hell is your name, anyway?).
 
Thanks severed, for that note. Illuminating 'street' wisdom. :thumbup:

Doubtful it would work for everyone, but his example stands out.

Coop
 
severedthumbs said:
One maker I respect the hell out of is Snody! that cat decided to take control of his business and not let the collectors run it. He makes what he wants, his creativity is not hindered by having to make the same knife 2000000 times.

here is what the man says, best business plan ever if u ask me. I got this in an email some time back, I hope it is ok to post. I think it is brilliant.

It was most certainly a Staus Symbol in the industry to "Have a five year backlog"

Wow!! What security!! What a great deal!! If I work hard maybe someday I can have a "Five Year Backlog" and all they great things that go along with it!!!

Fast Forward about a year and the Internet is Exploding!!!!!

Knife Forums, Knifemaker Websites, Knife Purveyors, Virtual Knife Shows, Knifemaking Communities, Online Knife Magazines, etc, etc, etc!!!

The internet was on fire and any knifemaker who had a decent website was hooked up like a sled dog. Seriously just about any knifemaker who had a cool site was completely covered up in work.

I had an article come out that year and in one weekend my backlog went from 6 months to well over 5 years!! In one night (Saturday) I received over 170 orders. Many of these orders were for multiple knives in fact one order alone was for 148 pieces and eventually increased to 172 individual knives and sheaths!!

Fast Forward a couple years!!!

The Internet is Saturated with Knifemakers and the Thinning has begun!!!

All the guys who had the nice websites and crummy knives are now on their way out. Most of you remember some of the Legends of the day
Blade, Corkum, Griffith and many, many more who were ultimately ousted as frauds.

At this point I am so deep in orders that I cant see light!! I have suspended taking new orders yet I still receive money in envelopes, checks, email orders and multiple phone calls daily. I send money and checks back to people, I respond to dozens of emails daily saying "thank you but I am not taking orders" I answer the phone several times a day to say "thanks but I am not taking orders" I attend knife shows and sell out in 10 minutes then spend two days telling friends and clients "sorry not taking orders"

I discover new methods of knifemaking and new materials that I want to explore but I am working on an order for 172 Carolina Skinners with identical wood handles. Three years into the process I am building orders that are four years old. I continue to get further behind because I keep accepting "special orders". Many individuals become frustrated while waiting five years for a knife that was promised in three and rightfully so. Some individuals just go NUTS and leave multiple messages screaming and cussing even though I did not accept their deposits or have any of their money.

I respond to emails over a five year period providing status, excuses, explaining why I am behind, accepting modifications to old orders, handle changes, blade an inch longer, etc, etc, etc,

The knife order that was placed in 2001 is now nearly five years old.
Lets say for argumnents sake that the actual knife requires 10 hours labor to complete. I now have close to 10 hours of correspondence associated with the piece and I havent even started it yet. In fact I just fell another month behind because I have to move to a different state and set up a new shop.

Now a second Thinning is taking place, this time its not the scam artist knifemaker.

This time its the Honest Knifemaker who is swamped in three to five year old orders. He quoted prices when the orders were placed and he intends to honor those prices. The problem is fuel costs have nearly doubled, Material Costs in many cases have increased 300 percent, rent is up, insurance is up, health care is up, machinery costs and consumables are up 30 to 40% and homie is working seven days a week digging himself in deeper and deeper with each knife he completes.

The market has completely changed but homie is still building 2001 patterns with ivory micarta handles because he got 200 orders for them after his article ran in Blade Magazine.

He sadly announces on his favorite knifemaking forum that he is going out of business.

He lost his ass and now he is working in Walmart!!!

I have been a fulltime knifemaker for the past four years.

My entire income is 100% knife related and my shop is open to the public.

I have struggled with taking orders, suspending orders, taking orders, suspending orders and I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible for me to manage a succesful operation while adhering to the "business model" of knifemaker who accepts orders.

The past four years have clearly demsontrated to me that the "knifemakers business model" of taking orders and maintaining a multi-year backlog is antiquated and no longer an acceptable method for SnodyKnives to employ.

I have never accepted deposits and most peoples lives change over a Five Year Period. When you get that Skinner with Mastadon Ivory and the Frog Sheath finished and find out that Mr Jones(who waited five years) just got a divorce and is homeless that opens up a whole other issue. What do you do with all the people who back out of an order?? I certainly dont blame anyone because Lord Knows I have had my share of bad luck but how do you manage this issue and operate a profitable business. Personally I would rather just forget the whole "order fiasco knifemaker business model" and sell them when they are finished. That way if a client has the money he can get the piece within a week. He can get it while he is still excited not five years later after his Ex put him in the poor house.

The decision to never again accept orders is about survival for SnodyKnives.

SnodyKnives will move forward with small limited batches of collectible, modern, high performance knives that will be offered for sale only after they have been completed and are ready to ship.

I will use SnodyLand to preview each of these Limited Batches.

We will maintain a Notification List and contact individuals when a model they are interested is being constructed.

When a new material shows up on the market I will be able to immediately incorporate it into my designs. I will constantly introduce new patterns and designs that I feel reflect current advancements in materials and technology. I am talking about New Designs Weekly, not every couple of years.




I have an obligation to every individual who purchases a Snody Knife to work hard and continue to promote the "Snody" brand and insure that their knife will hold its value in the aftermarket.
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I swear it wasn't me. ;):D

But seriously, every business owner has to find processes and procedures that works for them. I agree with Coop in that Mike's model would most definitely not work for some. I particularly like the last paragraph in that it demonstrates Mike's focus on the customer.
 
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I too have had to stop taking orders. Just too many orders as is. I learned long ago though, Never take deposits or quote a price several years down the road.

I have had customers offer very large sum's of money to move them to the top of the list. I just can't do it. From a purely financial stand point, I'm probably crazy for not doing it. After all. Who wouldn't want to double or triple their income. My wife and I would surely be better off If I did accept these more than generous offers. But I must be of low intelligence, as I just can't do it.

Bummer!!! Some body pass the Ramen!

M. Lovett
 
Michael Lovett said:
I too have had to stop taking orders. Just too many orders as is. I learned long ago though, Never take deposits or quote a price several years down the road.

I have had customers offer very large sum's of money to move them to the top of the list. I just can't do it. From a purely financial stand point, I'm probably crazy for not doing it. After all. Who wouldn't want to double or triple their income. My wife and I would surely be better off If I did accept these more than generous offers. But I must be of low intelligence, as I just can't do it.

Bummer!!! Some body pass the Ramen!

M. Lovett
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Mike, do you give regular customers that buy multiple knives from you preferential treatment on your list?

I don't fault makers that do this.
Most business from airlines, hotels to sales and service companies give upgrades, discounts, quicker service to customers that spend the most with them.
 
Michael Lovett said:
I too have had to stop taking orders. Just too many orders as is. I learned long ago though, Never take deposits or quote a price several years down the road.

I have had customers offer very large sum's of money to move them to the top of the list. I just can't do it. From a purely financial stand point, I'm probably crazy for not doing it. After all. Who wouldn't want to double or triple their income. My wife and I would surely be better off If I did accept these more than generous offers. But I must be of low intelligence, as I just can't do it.

Bummer!!! Some body pass the Ramen!

M. Lovett
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Good point, Mike. You are kind of lucky because, with the style of knives that you make, you are somewhat insulated from stylistic changes and worrying like Mr. Snody about falling behind in the creative area because you are making a "five year old knife" today. I am in the same boat as far as making traditonal knives, but I don't have a waiting list other that the list of rough forged blades sitting on my workbench that need to be finished.:rolleyes: You just have to continue to work on that last 1% or less gap left until you get to absolute fit and finish perfection :thumbup: I can't help ya on the having to sell them for less than they are worth today part.;) But bag the Ramen bit. You live in Texas.......go out and shoot a possum or armadillo for a little variety on the dinner table:D
 
There is a necessary and welcome break in the 5-yr-backorder from almost any maker who goes to a show. In those cases, the maker is obligated to have knives for immediate sale. And sell they do. (Then the early buying strategy comes into effect.)

I missed purchasing a Bob Lum folder two years ago, by being first in line through the door, and then stopping for 30 seconds to shake hands with a maker. Once I resumed I got to his table after three men who just arrived, and Bob had two available knives. :( Yes, I had an order placed years before, but that never made it.

Buddy T. will not order a knife, but will only purchase a knife on the table, for a number or reasons. I certainly see his rationale.

Coop
 
SharpByCoop said:
There is a necessary and welcome break in the 5-yr-backorder from almost any maker who goes to a show. In those cases, the maker is obligated to have knives for immediate sale. And sell they do. (Then the early buying strategy comes into effect.)

I missed purchasing a Bob Lum folder two years ago, by being first in line through the door, and then stopping for 30 seconds to shake hands with a maker. Once I resumed I got to his table after three men who just arrived, and Bob had two available knives. :( Yes, I had an order placed years before, but that never made it.

Buddy T. will not order a knife, but will only purchase a knife on the table, for a number or reasons. I certainly see his rationale.

Coop
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Ah yes, make knives for shows- get further behind on promised delivery dates. It will be interesting to see if as many makers attend shows given the current economic catastrophe. I have read one big time maker say he does not do any shows because it is way to much out of pocket before even a dime is made. With the internet and dealer networks it seems many other makers may say bye bye to the shows as well.
 
severedthumbs said:
Ah yes, make knives for shows- get further behind on promised delivery dates. It will be interesting to see if as many makers attend shows given the current economic catastrophe. I have read one big time maker say he does not do any shows because it is way to much out of pocket before even a dime is made. With the internet and dealer networks it seems many other makers may say bye bye to the shows as well.
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Shows are a HUGE part of the custom knife industry and perhaps to a large extent why the industry enjoys the success it does today. Not discounting the INTERNET by any means but there's still STRONG appeal for shows as evident by the strong participation and all the new shows that are popping up.
Have you seen next year's show schedule from spring through fall? :eek:
Nothing will take the place of actually visiting/interacting with makers and physically handling/examining knives.

I expect there's few new makers that could become very successful without first going to shows and not many that currently enjoy success who can sustain that success long term without going to a show or two.

Coop, we have great diversity here as we have one established collector that will not order a knife and yet another that will only purchase via orders.
More than one way to skin a cat. Oops, guess that phrase is not very socially acceptable anymore. ;)
 
Kevin Jones said:
Have you seen next year's show schedule from spring through fall? :eek:
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I have and I will withhold judgement until we see the bottom line from these shows.

I think shows are great and are important but with the rise of other ways to promote yourself and be successful at it, it kinda diminishes the importance of shows. I know of many a maker that go to shows just to socialize, dont bring knives or take orders. I have friends in my personal life so it is not a big deal to me if I meet makers and we befriend each other. If I meet someone that happens to make knives and we become friends, great, but it will not be because he/she makes knives. I like buying Mac computers but I have never met Steve Jobs. I went to shows a while back and honestly it did nothing for me. Maybe I'm just antisocial. lol:D
 
severedthumbs said:
I have and I will withhold judgement until we see the bottom line from these shows.
I think shows are great and are important but with the rise of other ways to promote yourself and be successful at it, it kinda diminishes the importance of shows. I know of many a maker that go to shows just to socialize, dont bring knives or take orders. I have friends in my personal life so it is not a big deal to me if I meet makers and we befriend each other. If I meet someone that happens to make knives and we become friends, great, but it will not be because he/she makes knives. I like buying Mac computers but I have never met Steve Jobs. I went to shows a while back and honestly it did nothing for me. Maybe I'm just antisocial. lol:D
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Fat chance of seeing a bottom line from a show. But if you do please share with the rest of us. ;) :)

Wish show promoters would share their attendance and sales figures, but doubt they ever will.

After every show, we on this forum see about equal attendees stating it was slow as stating it was busy.

The exception being the past Blade Show. I don't think anyone there would say other than it was an extremely busy and a successful show in general.
 
Shows are not quite as important as they used to be, but still very important and are here to stay. I could not imagine, not going to the Blade Show, it would be very traumatic!

Severed, thanks for the Snody quote, That was a good read! I don't make near the number of knives Mike does, but I can relate.
 
I'd say first and foremost survival and working within your comfort zone are the two top priority things to focus on for both peace of mind, and even your health because stress is a real killer folks. Right in line following these first priorities I'd say next would be staying in touch with reality. I think for many it seems that once an article is printed up about them or their work in a major publication or from what I've heard once they've run just so much as a single add in one of the publications it suddenly gives them access to a lot larger customer base and orders start coming which of course are gladly taken until they come down off that high and realize now that they have to get after it PDQ! What seems to happen is that people get caught up in that instant fame and that after a short while forget that you have to dicipline yourself to just say 'no' and realize you are only human and you can only do so much realistically.

For me personally I'm sure its different than a typical custom knife maker working full time. What I do is I stop taking new work orders from the moment I get five months out for work, no exceptions, always have. I actually start stressing about it when my work load is three months out but five has been the magic cut off for me and that has worked to allow me to still be able to always see a light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. Then when I catch back up to around a month or two months I pick up again allowing the new work to come in as usual. On some work like all the slip joint and fixed blade work I used to do I just quit doing that altogether and now refer most all of that unless its a simple quick fix I can do between the folder work I prefer.


This five or more years to complete an order sounds very dangerous to me. In this market you can't afford to be out further than a few months really because each time we reorder supplies prices change and usually not for the better. Taking orders and then not shipping for five years or more could be enough to put a maker upside down for profit or very nearly so in how its supposed to be. By the time a five or six year old work order was filled a maker could end up barely breaking even or worse, paying the customer to make the knife ordered depending on what material choices were ordered for the knife five years earlier. Thats a bad business plan IMO unless you set aside the stuff needed for each project and let it sit there together until you can get to it and I'm sure no one is doing that.

As for taking money up front. Thats really no ones business but your own but personally I only do it for small jobs I get in and out of here in a matter of days with few exceptions usually. All others are when the job is completed.

STR
 
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