Custom Knife Pricing-Educational Discussion

[BowieBooster]

Custom knives are a strange animal. With most collectables, the collector loses at least 25% of his "investment" as soon as he takes possession of the collectable item. This generally even holds true for "hand made" items. A lot of collectors only buy off the secondary market because it's so much cheaper.

Now, the crazy world of custom knives. It's mostly driven by the market, in my opinion. Some makers sell the 4" hunter for a thousand dollars or more. Owner 1 flips it to buyer 2, who flips it to buyer 3, and now it's $2,000 or more. Good luck selling a 4" hunter you paid a less "collectable" maker $400 for more than $300. Some makers seem to make knives and sell them at "market" price, and they hold their value fairly steadily, but aren't "flip worthy" material.

Makers in the first category raise their prices for several reasons, including wanting a bigger share of the profit others are making off THEIR knives (a damned legit argument in my opinion!); feeling that there's more value in their knives due to what the market has priced them at, even though their original price gave them a fair to great return (now we may be entering the gray area); and, with some more likely than not, because, "I can get it, dammit!"

It also seems to me that many makers are very underpaid for excellent work because they just can't get "noticed" for whatever reason, but they keep on putting a week's worth of work and material investment into a Bowie they'll wind up selling for $450.

Just my own observations and opinions gleaned from collecting and/or watching the market for 20 some-odd years and buying from makers and purveyors from all ends of the price and collectable spectrum. Could just as easily be that I live in my own goofy little world where elves come into my bedroom at night to steal one of each pair of my socks ...

 

[BowieBooster]

Not to sidetrack too much, but why no love for the skeletal remains of the worlds tallest quadruped?

Considering the small number of Giraffes and the silly-huge number of knives made out of their bones, one might think that stuff to be pretty valuable, but MAN, that material's cheap!!!

 

[RogerP]

You compare, side by side your knife to your competitors knives.

As many of your competitors as you can...Apples to Apples. Not their knife with a stag handle and yours with Giraffe bone (I hope you aren't using that). In other words, the cost of the materials should be approximately the same.

Ok, keep going

"The woods are lovely dark and deep. But you have promises to keep, and miles to go before you sleep!"

Damn, Les, quoting Robert Frost??

Whenever I hear a maker say "Yeah, I went to Blade, spent three days, but never left my table or got to look around, really." - I want to bang my head against a wall. Golden market research opportunity - fully paid for - and completely wasted.

Roger

 

[SharpByCoop]

In 2002 I got an opportunity to photograph for a fellow who's collecting had gone mad. he decided to build a website, become a 'dealer' and then substantiate his obsession for buying, with a business means.

I was able to compose lousy montage images, and they were coming into vogue. Mine were especially lousy, but they showed three views.

400 knives later, at only $15 per image, I was finally figuring out how to make the images actually enhance the knife. Bottom line: I got paid to learn.

I did a local NCCA knife show and then charged $30 per image. I got thirty clients!

My now-proliferous work was suggested by Tim Herman, to be seen by Phil Lobred, who needed a fill-in for the 2003 AKI. After that show it catapulted my career.

As time has gone on I've figured out how to work productively and efficiently while still maintaining competitive pricing. A slow steady climb.

Before I got to where I am now I virtually gave my services away, but I loved doing the work.

Is there a parallel?

Coop

BTW: There is an unseen additional premium paid for artistry, unrelated to manhours. You have to completely give it away at first, and then you are free to charge according to what the market will bear. If, in fact it's what the market enjoys. If not, you will find out quickly.

 

[Kohai999]

400 knives later, at only $15 per image, I was finally figuring out how to make the images actually enhance the knife. Bottom line: I got paid to learn.

I did a local NCCA knife show and then charged $30 per image. I got thirty clients!

My now-proliferous work was suggested by Tim Herman, to be seen by Phil Lobred, who needed a fill-in for the 2003 AKI. After that show it catapulted my career.

I'm liking what I'm reading, lot of good stuff here for those paying attention!

Let's keep it going, people, all perspectives welcome....no harshing for a thought that runs "against the grain".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Vege,

Not to sidetrack too much, but why no love for the skeletal remains of the worlds tallest quadruped?

My perspective is different from that of the collector. I don't buy what I like...I buy what will resell.

It is wise for both dealers (from a business perspective) and collectors from a ROI perspective. To not buy designs or materials that are "trendy".

I suspect you never heard of Wild Woods....all the rage back in the 90's. Pine infused with different colors and stabilized. Easy to use, inexpensive and the color range was like nothing custom knives had ever seen before. At this point you are probably asking yourself...if it was all the rage how come I haven't heard of it.

Then came jigged bone (you know bovine femur) cut up, dyed and jigged. People Loved them some jigged bone! I was especially fond of the Fire Engine Red and the Lime Green! Easy to use, inexpensive and the color range was well basically any color you could want!

This is not to be confused with the jigged bone put on slip joints and mufti-blades! This was BIG Pieces...for Fighters and Bowies!!!!

About the same time that Stag was banned for export the Giraffe Bone craze began. It was easy to use, inexpensive and the color range (just like Wild Woods it was infused with dyes) was incredible.

Today, we have moved on to Camel Bone...and some are using Horse Bone. They are inexpensive, easy to use and infused with dye the color range is exceptional.

Now I suspect by now you are picking up on the pattern.

Bowie Booster wrote:

Custom knives are a strange animal. With most collectibles, the collector loses at least 25% of his "investment" as soon as he takes possession of the collectible item.

Part of the reason this occurs is that makers use materials that are "trendy" whose demand will peak in a few years and ultimately will become a material that is no longer trendy...read not in demand...read....can't give it away.

Yes, there will be exceptions.

All that being said, if you buy a trendy style or material(s) if you sell it when that style or material(s) peaks...you will probably break even...maybe even make a little money.

For my part I learned a long time ago, don't get involved in trends (unless you are creating them).

By steering clear of these trends I don't have to worry about my clients trying to trade a knife back to me that I have no chance of reselling. Check out my trade in policy against the other dealers...if they have one. I suspect you will be surprised as to what you will find.

Hope this helps.

 

[NickWheeler]

Well you won't get any disagreement from me that pricing is hard... REALLY hard.

I've now been at this pretty damn seriously for 14 years.... 5 of those it being my only job, and it's still very hard for me.

My recent "comeback" made it even harder. Nobody had seen anything new from me for 3 years so the demand was in a weird spot... it was more on the side of the fence of "is he going to make any more" rather than "I'm interested to see what he makes next and I might want it."

Of course I've tinkered in the shop this whole time and walked past the equipment/tools every single day so I didn't question that I was still a knifemaker but I understand EVERYONE else did.

Add to that, I just got my Js stamp and the Peck award the last time anybody saw something new from me. Which at least IMHO, validates a little bump in price. Nothing earth shattering, but a little bit.

So all of a sudden I'm treating my ADD and FINISHING knives. The flood gate opened and I was getting emails, calls, and even two texts about knives. Demand was feeling pretty strong.

So what did I do? I asked several of my proven customers what they thought fair value was on my new work.

I didn't get a single answer of, "Ehhh, $20."

In fact, most everyone told me to charge more than I had planned on.

So I split the difference.... hoping to keep the work at a price that it was a fair value but would also (hopefully) pay for my show expenses to San Anton.

Even though I can get more $$$ for a knife than John Q Newguy, but significantly less than John Q BeenabigdogForever--- it breaks down to a very weak hourly wage for me. But I'm hopeful that if I continue to treat the ADD and continue to put hours in the shop, I can cut the silly number of hours I put into a knife down significantly.

Of course from a maker's standpoint, you certainly have to consider things like dropping $50 on a Bill's Custom Case and 100-150 bones for one of the best sheaths on the planet. I am trying to do just that as it adds value to the overall package. But you gotta make enough on the last knife, or have enough $$$ saved up so that you can pay those two Master Craftsmen for their TIME/EXPERTISE/SKILLS.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Bowie Booster,

Considering the small number of Giraffes and the silly-huge number of knives made out of their bones, one might think that stuff to be pretty valuable, but MAN, that material's cheap!!!

In Africa....the roads, specifically black tops are be pushed ever deeper into the jungles and savannas of Africa.

The top of the food chain in Africa is the Lion! Now for years Giraffes were pretty much safe from Lions...babies and the old and the weak...not so much.

It is a biological fact that Giraffes have hooves. Which in the dirt of the savannas is perfectly suited. Now there are these black ribbons of asphalt starting to criss cross Africa.

Well the Giraffes hooves don't do well on the smooth oily asphalt. Imagine you being on stilts and the stilts are in smooth soled shoes and you are on ice! As you can imagine you would be off balance...and so are the Giraffes.

Now the Lions have figure out that if they put half the pride on the far side of the asphalt road...and use the other half to chase the Giraffe towards the road....imagine you are now being chased by 400 pound killing machines, and you are on those stilts, in smooth soled shoes one ice.

As you can imagine this does not work out well for the Giraffe. Once the lions leave the kill, the rest of the "clean up" crew comes by. Hyenas, Vultures, etc. The last part of the clean up crew is man. In Africa, as in the US they have people who work for DOT and clean up the "road kill".

In Africa the DOT took the Giraffe carcass to a meat processing facility where some smart entrepreneur said "I know I can do what they owners of the slaughter houses in the Stock Yards in Chicago did (they sold their waste of bovine leg bones to companies like Remington and Case...this is where Jigged bone started). This bright businessman said I will sell this road kill to American knife makers!

So no, Giraffe bone is not going to become valuable...as it is nothing but road kill.

And now (as Paul Harvey used to say) you know the rest of the story!

BTW, Giraffe bone makes excellent scale material. Just keep in mind your 25% loss...when you drive the knife off the lot!

 

[Kohai999]

Well you won't get any disagreement from me that pricing is hard... REALLY hard.

Add to that, I just got my Js stamp and the Peck award the last time anybody saw something new from me. Which at least IMHO, validates a little bump in price. Nothing earth shattering, but a little bit.

So all of a sudden I'm treating my ADD and FINISHING knives. The flood gate opened and I was getting emails, calls, and even two texts about knives. Demand was feeling pretty strong.

So what did I do? I asked several of my proven customers what they thought fair value was on my new work.

For the record, I advised Nick lower than he charged at San Antonio, afterwards I spoke with my good friend Peter Gill who advised Nick to go higher.

Peter is a flippin' dilettante knife collector "a person having a superficial interest in an art or a branch of knowledge : dabbler"....now Peter has more than a superficial interest in knife collecting, but he is definitely dabbling, as in....whatever is left over from "real life" is what he has for knife collecting...he would NEVER spend the rent money on knives....which makes him....a dilettante..and THEY can skew EVERYTHING.....a REAL collector does not let ANYTHNG get in the way of a show or a knife that is dear to them...not weddings, not funerals, and certainly, not the kids coming home from college...."real" collectors are few and far between...pahhhhhh

So, now you know how this aspect of a missing-in-action knifemaker who happens to be a genius comes up with prices that defy understanding.

In Africa the DOT took the Giraffe carcass to a meat processing facility where some smart entrepreneur said "I know I can do what they owners of the slaughter houses in the Stock Yards in Chicago did (they sold their waste of bovine leg bones to companies like Remington and Case...this is where Jigged bone started). This bright businessman said I will sell this road kill to American knife makers!

So no, Giraffe bone is not going to become valuable...as it is nothing but road kill.

Good stuff Les, even though your disdain of mokume gane' has been proven specious at best.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[sheathmaker]

Les, I read your entire post. Interesting story.

Now to recap, I took from your post that Giraffe Bone is best when it comes from road kill, but how would I know when buying at a show if it is really road kill and further if it is prime road kill?

I was further encouraged when I noted that the immediate loss would only be 25% which in this economy is pretty good return.

I would ask you what time it is, but after that post I'm afraid you'd tell me how to build a watch!

and................in case you are in a grumpy mood, I hope you know this was all tongue in cheek.

Paul

 

[Lorien]

Les, your post about trends was pure gold. You explained yourself perfectly and now after all these years I know exactly where you are coming from on the camel bone thing, (and others).

Nick, I'm telling you man, there's a story there.

It must be really hard for a knife maker to decide when to make a move when it comes to pricing. And it would be such a highly personal thing too. I guess materials cost changes would also affect that decision. Probably a good baseline is to at least know material and equipment costs and whether a markup should be applied and if so, how much.

What are the pitfalls of underestimating your own market position? I mean it's not great to lack self confidence if one plans to go into business for one's self, but what does one do to keep that in check? To stay confident? I bet for a lot of guys, it's selling knives, but there's probably a lot more to it than that. Like positive customer feedback etc. Maybe that's a good reason to attend shows, to get that positive stoke back on.

There are definitely some amazing universal truths being brought to light in this thread, not only for knives but other stuff too.

 

[psycho78]

If I charged by the hour I'd have standard 3 piece hunters with ironwood and corbys, and Japanese cord wrapped knives going for $1000! lol

I just can't see anyone pricing anything by the hour.

 

[ptgdvc]

For the record, I advised Nick lower than he charged at San Antonio, afterwards I spoke with my good friend Peter Gill who advised Nick to go higher.

STeven Garsson

For the record, I merely stated that if a wise collector was unwilling to pay Nick $1,250 for the KIQ (knife in question) at the ABS show in San Antonio, he could sell to me after the show, at that price. Kevin Jones stepped up to the plate and made a great acquisition. End of story.

 

[Kohai999]

For the record, I merely stated that if a wise collector was unwilling to pay Nick $1,250 for the KIQ (knife in question) at the ABS show in San Antonio, he could sell to me after the show, at that price. Kevin Jones stepped up to the plate and made a great acquisition. End of story.

You did not attend the show, afaik....thusly avoiding the associated costs....no risk on your part....dabbler...end of story...you jacked the cost of the knife....have you EVER ventured west of the Mason-Dixon to attend a show?



Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[NickWheeler]

...you jacked the cost of the knife....

STeven Garsson

I think you are assuming that you and Peter are the only ones I talked to and that somewhere along the line I set the price and then changed my mind. I talked to several people to get some advice and ultimately made the decision all on my own as to the exact price I put on the knife.

And the part about prices that defy understanding??? I did my best to figure my place in the knife world, the design, finish, and materials involved, along with the fact that knife had a Bill's Case and a Paul Long sheath. I'm not sure how that defies understanding.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi STeven,

Good stuff Les, even though your disdain of mokume gane' has been proven specious at best.

I left that out...as I was going for a common thread.

Sadly there are some pockets of resistance out there and occasionally the dreaded and feared mokume gane rears its ugly head.

 

[sheathmaker]

.have you EVER ventured west of the Mason-Dixon to attend a show?
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson

STevie, Mississippi=East and West
Mason-Dixon= North and South

Check it out. Google is your friend.

Beyond that...moot point....the purchaser is happy with the knife at the price Nick quoted so it must have been the correct price, no?

Paul

 

[black mamba]

Paul is on a roll tonight . . . I think I just heard a rimshot from somewhere!

 

[cnas122]

My post sucked. I'm deleting it.

 

[Kevin Jones]

STevie, Mississippi=East and West
Mason-Dixon= North and South

Check it out. Google is your friend.

Beyond that...moot point....the purchaser is happy with the knife at the price Nick quoted so it must have been the correct price, no?

Paul

Correct Paul, as I'm very happy with it and IMO it was the second best value at the show. :thumbup: