custom knives are like new cars?

Originally posted by Les Robertson
...snip...
This goes back to the "forumla". Every collector has a formal or informal formula and uses this to make the determination as to which category their new purchase goes into.

I realize like just about every other person involved in custom knives that most knives are not made or bought for investment purposes.

However, on occasion knives do appear which have investment potential.
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Les,
I can't agree more! I know my "Formula" - I've bought 3 custom knives so far. Each to fill a certain using need that I could NOT get in a factory knife. To me, they are just a good using knife. I didn't care about "Investment" value at all, just about "Use" value. That's my "Formula". Obviously, that's a TOTALLY different formula than you have to have in your business.

Isn't that part of what makes this hobby fun?
 
"Tom Mayo,

You are incorrect about both Emerson's and Onion's. Emerson's have seen a drastic downturn in value in the aftermarket over the last 12 months. Knives that were selling for $1,700 a year ago are now selling routinely for $1,000 - $1,2000 (some below that). There are alot of collectors who are going to lose money if and when they sell their Emerson purchased in the aftermarket.

Ernie sells his knives for $500. If you pay more than that.....You need to get in touch with Ernie!!! :)
Ken and Ernies knives sell for 2x what the makers sell them for. This thread started with the premise that knives go DOWN IN VALUE... and you say I am incorrect!!! :confused:



:rolleyes: :p :rolleyes:
 
Hi Tom,

I understand the premise of the thread. I can also see where you would think you are correct. As your view of the custom knife market is that of a "primary" seller.

However, collectors/users don't find out how much their knife is really worth until they test the waters in the aftermarket.

You made the statement:

"Ernie sells his knives for $500. If you pay more than that.....You need to get in touch with Ernie!!!"

First, all of Emerson's folders start at $575.00.

Second, getting in touch with "Ernie" will do you no good as he stopped taking orders about two years ago. On top of that his current delivery time is about 5 years. Lets face it a lot can happen in 5 years.

So your option of "You need to get in touch with Ernie" is not a viable solution.

It is the same with Ken, but for different reasons.

There is one solution, be one of those who can get picked to buy one of their knives at a show. Again, because of show locations, this agains limits those who can be in the position to buy one of their knives.

Also, if you end up spending $300- $500 to attend a show just to buy one of the knive. Now you into that knife for $900 - $1,100. You are no longer into the knife for just it's retail price. As there were expenses getting to the position where you could buy the knife.

This is akin to makers telling me they "made" $5,000 at a show. When I ask them how much money they made, they respond $5,000. Then I ask them how much they sold (dollars wise) again they respond $5,000. I then ask them if they took the money out for show/travel expenses, material costs, shop time, etc. From many I get a puzzled look.

Now it is true that there are some who actually have the knive delivered to their house as part of the order/delivery process. These individuals will do even better as the knife is priced at what it was when the knife was ordered.

However, as I stated in an earlier post there are those who paid $1,700 for a Emerson who will now have to wait for Emerson to quit making knives to possibly get their money back on the "dated" folders.

So it is possible to lose money on a knife that should make money. Again, you have to do your homework.

It's like buying Loveless knives, you have to know which blade marks sell for which and why.

Tom I'm sure you understand that makers have little or no imput into the aftermarket. If collectors love your knives they are worth more. If they don't like them they are worth less.

Also, there are things that happen away from the knives that also have an impact on makers work. Someone brought up contact information for Tommy Lee. Yes, he is a retired knife maker, last I heard he was a real estate agent. His knives depreciated rapidly due directly to his lack of "moral fiber". It had nothing to do with their quality or the amount he made or the price. There were collectors out there who just no longer wanted Tommy Lee's knives.

Cars, like most other things deprciate as soon as you own them. Personally, I feel if you have done your homework you stand a very good chance of your custom knives not depreciating at all.

Tom you are correct in that it is best to buy an Onion or an Emerson directly from Ken or Ernie...good luck.

The reality is for most collectors that is not an option. As such the aftermarket is their only option.

Knives deprecaite and escalate in value in direct proportion to their desireablity in the aftermarket.

Note, this desireablity fluctuates on a continual basis.

Interesting thread in that we are getting three different views of the same thing. Makers, dealers and collectors.

As Tom has shown, that all of our views can be correct or incorrect, it just depends on your perspective.

Buy what you like...do your homework...create your own "forumla"!
 
What is seldom recognized in these discussions is that your manhood depends on how you use your knives and how you view them as an investment instrument

As was once posted by a certain member of these forums


You are hanging by your balls from a limb. In order to save your balls you have to cut a rope. You have a custom knife in one pocket and a factory knife in the other pocket. You don't know which maker made the custom knife and you don't know which factory produced the factory knife. You only have time to reach for one. Which pocket do you go to.

I know what my answer is.
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Since using a fine custom knife in such a way is bound to have a negative impact on its value (the depreciation is bound to be especially severe if the knife is known to have been in close proximity to certain peoples never regions :eek: ) this is indeed a tough question

However, failure to properly extricate ones self from such a predicament has long term ramifications that none of us want to consider.

What a catch-22

:confused:
 
A little something more to add...

Return can be measured in total dollars or % of return. From a percentage perspective, returns on factory knives are almost always better than on handmade/custom knives.

It seems virtually any factory knife is more widely known to lay persons than the entire output of any custom maker. This creates a much wider array of folks that "covet" a particular model and are drawn into a casual collecting mode.

Folks on the major forums dump factory knives at incredible losses.
Put the same knife up on Ebay and you will, after fees, clear a hefty percentage on any desireable factory knife. Put any custom knife up on Ebay, in mint condition, bought on these same forums, and you will be lucky to get 75% of what you paid for it.

None of this has anything to do with the quality of the knife, just that desire (hence, perceived value) is driven very often by simple aquaintance.
 
Bandaidman,

There is the exception 6 of the Catch 22 rule.

Which sates (and I am paraphrasing here). Should you buy a top quality knife from a professional maker. After such extracation you may return the knife to said professional maker to have the knife restored to it's original condition. Prior to the extracation.

Factories obvioulsy do not offer the same service.

Yet another reason why friends don't let friends buy factory knives.

Architect,

I don't think your statement is accurate.

First, the MSRP on a factory knife is not accurate. A $100 factory knife can be bought all day for $50...or less.

I don't buy and sell factory knives so I have no idea, but unless you were selling the knife at a signifcant loss, say $25.00 why would someone buy "used" factory knife?

I guess to get a cheap knife even cheaper.

Then there is this statement:

"Put any custom knife up on Ebay, in mint condition, bought on these same forums, and you will be lucky to get 75% of what you paid for it."

Architect, so by putting your statement into application we would find the following to be true:

I buy a Tom Mayo TNT for $500 on BF. Then put it on Ebay. Before adjustment for Ebay fees I am only going to get $137.50?

Has anybody any where ever seen a Mayo TNT for sale at $137.50? How about $337.50?

You say the same is going to hold true for Brend, Broadwell, Carson, Chamblin, Emerson, Ralph, Simonich, Smith, Terzuola and a hundred other top makers work that is sold on BF?

Your ignorance of the custom knife market is showing for all to see.

Architect, why would anyone take a 75% loss on any knife? As anyone who has been buying custom knives for even a short amount of time knows who AG Russell is. His representative Paul Basch is at every major and most minor knife shows around the country.

If you bring Paul any custom knife in mint condition, generally he will pay you 50% of it's retail price. That means he will give you $250 for that Mayo TNT.

By doing this instead of using Ebay you will make an additional $112.50 (plus you won't be Ebay any fees).

Remember, you said "any knife bought on BF".

Further if Ebay only returns 25% of your purchase price (If this is the truth) on any custom knife no mater what it is. Why would you use Ebay.

If your custom knives are only brining 25 cents on the dollar on Ebay...you are buying the wrong custom knives.

Architect, you are making generaliztion's about a market, which based soley on the content of your statments. Would indicate you have little if any knowledge of the current custom knife market.
 
Thanks Les,
In my limited experience in selling Customs I have found your posts in this thread to be dead on.

When I use a nice custom I tend to get more satisfaction than I have paid for the knife so I do not feel that I have lost anything.

In the few cases where I have kept the knife mint and resold it at a later date (due to the advice of you and others in guiding my choices as well as some "homework"), I have never sold one at a loss and in some cases have realized a gain that compares easily with "more serious" investments. There are makers out there (more than just the ones mentioned in this thread.)whose knives (depending upon the actual knife too) are worth more on the day of delivery than what you will pay.

Examples I have had personal experice with include:
Dellana
Richard Rogers
Joel Chamblin
Audra Draper
Mel Pardue
Tony Bose
Reese Bose

There are many others.

Not that I have sold any of the knives in my collection by these makers, but offers to buy from dealers and collectors (in some cases within hours after purchase) have been in the range of 20 to 30 percent more than I paid. I guess I could have cashed in, but I would rather have the knives in my collection due to the friendships and quality of the work. There have not been to many cases in the stock market where I have realized a 20 to 30 percent gain in a matter of hours, but I have had that happen quite often with knives.

A note on ebay.
A few months ago, right before I was going to sleep I saw a Caffery 3 bar damascus composit on ebay at a low price and bid on it. The result was an 11 inch bowie at a price at which I would expect to pay for a carbon steel blade from a popular M.S. which almost made me feel guilty. Bargans can be found there on occasions but you need to know what you are doing.

As far as factory stuff on ebay. I liquidated a lot of my old inventory a few years ago from when I used to sell (Case Classics, and desirable discontinued quality stuff) at prices that ran the gamut from absurdly high to fair and on a couple of occasions a little low - due to lack of general knowledge out there of rarity, I have found that ebay can be a good place to sell factory stuff, but it does not reflect the available market potential in Custom knives.

On the factory stuff as a whole I never could have sold those knives at those prices at a knife show. When I sold factory knives at shows I was lucky to realize 15 or 20 percent above my gross wholesale cost meaning I had to sell a lot of knives to make a show financially worth while. Breaking even after expenses was always a challenge, thankfully the company made every show worth-while overall.

edited to add Tony and Reese and correct a typo or two :)
 
Hey Les, I guess you need some math lessons. Go back and read my post if you can't figure out what I said. Second, I wasn't referring to inside buyers like Paul that rape (help?) folks who lack the skills, desire or wherewithal to find buyers on their own. I was referring to persons that might buy from a dealer (like you) or from these forums. I have seen folks buy knives off your website and then turn around and sell them at a 20-30% loss just weeks later.

Spend a little time on Ebay. You can pick up a Terzuola ATCF with CF scales that sells on your website for $600.00 or more (if they are in stock, which they currently are) for about $350.00 - $375.00. Not everyday of course, but more frequently than you imagine.

I made no generalizations about the "custom" market. I am making simple, factual statements about very specific observations that I have seen occuring on these forums and on Ebay. My only generalization regarding the "custom" market is that virtually no custom maker has any mass public identity. Virtually everyone knows the name of at least two or three factory makers and can identify specific models. This is what I was referring to regarding desire created for collecting.

Les, you make a poor assumption by referring to new factory models. There are many collectible older factory knives that had limited runs and/or are no longer available. You cannot buy them from any dealer (except if they have old stock they are culling) or specialize in carrying such collectibles. These knives often bring a very high rate of return. I have seen specific examples where one forumite purchases a knife off of these forums, and then resells on Ebay for a clean return of 150% - 200%. Remember, I was referring to percentages, not total dollars.

As part of your typical pattern of trying to be the uber-purveyor, you have ignored the facts, information and opinions presented in my original post. I never claimed to be authoritative about the custom market in general, only about what I have personally observed.

If you want to test my facts, try selling your wares on Ebay and you will see that you cannot get the prices you list on your website. If you don't believe me, put up 5 or 10 models on a no reserve auction, and you will see what I mean.

Les, you are just another poster on these forums. Get off your high horse and instead of getting all excited and trying to berate and teach me (and Tom Mayo) and others about the custom market that you obviously know so well :rolleyes: stick to the topic at hand.
 
I've been enjoying the input from the various, knowledgeable folks who have been posting on this thread. However, I think some of you may have missed my original point -- the one I tried to emphasize with the remark that my TNT is now worth about $20 because it's been used -- that there is no apparent relationship between remaining useful life and resale value with custom knives, even with a "user."

So, let me phrase it another way: given two user-type knives of the same model, from the same maker, one pristine, the other minimally used, there is a difference in price that goes far beyond the difference is functional value. That does not make sense.

This is a different concept than the market forces that drive the collector market, which is purely supply and demand.
 
Lots of things are that way. Buy a new car, drive it a hundred miles, (arguable less than 1% of it expected lifespan) and it will have depreciated a substantial amount. Buy a new gun, take it home, put it in a safe for two years, then return it to the gunstore where you bought it and try to sell it back to them at wholesale. You can't. Even though the gun has been in a safe, unused, it may not be sold by the store as "new". It can only be sold as "unfired", at a substantial discount off the "new" price. Buy a new suit, wear it once, then try to sell it at even 50% of its original value.

Your TNT is certainly worth a lot more than you suggest, probably 80% of it's original value to anyone wanting a TNT, maybe the full new price to someone wanting one badly, and in 5 years assuming it's still relatively unscathed, for a lot more than it cost you, because by then Mayo will be too old to make any more... :)
 
Jerry,
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I see a distinction between custom/handcrafted goods and factory manufactured ones.

The re-sale value of that car may be quite a bit below what the dealer sold it for, but how much is it below the price Detroit sold it to the dealer for (true price, not the one the dealer tells you about). No, you can't sell the unfired gun back to the dealer for even the wholesale price, but how about the guy down the street who'd probably be real happy to get it for that price? With a custom knife, the price in question is the manufacturer's price.

I have no doubts that I could get most of the purchase price back if I were to sell my TNT (not that I have any intention of doing so, ever). But there is definite collector value associated with Mr. Mayo's knives -- how often do you ever see one for sale that's actually seen real use?

Let's hope that Tom isn't too old to make knives in another 5 years. With all the time he's been spending on the forums, it'll be that long before he gets to my order. :p
 
Dave, I understand your point, and you're right. There is a distinction between factory made and custom. Some of that same thing applies to customs though. Custom guns often lose a lot of value when used. Part of the custom knife value/price dichotomy lies in how you value them to start with. It really boils down to what it's worth to whoever decides to buy one. Half of that equation is probably logical and half is knee jerk reaction to seeing/handling the knife. The logic side is what Les deals with, and you can't argue its merits. The other side though is equally valid. If someone decides that's the knife they want, for whatever reason, price becomes a secondary consideration. If they decide they need to get rid of it, for whatever reason, the price they can get in the time they have to sell it is what it is, and depends on whose knee might be jerking at that moment.

Here's an example, back in the '80s I bought a knife from one of the hottest young makers to come along, Kurt Ericson. It's a small fighter with ivory handle and is engraved by Buster Warenski. I think I paid maybe $700 for it. Today you can't buy the engraving on that knife for a lot more than that, but the knife is worth less than I paid on the general market, because Ericson has simply vanished from the market. Likely I'll sell the knife one day at a decent price, but only because of the engraving. Maybe that's why I make them instead of buying them. It's just slightly less risky... :)

Interesting thread, but I fear there's no good answer.

My TNT is badly beaten and abused. I do that intentionally everytime Mayo and I argue about something (often), but I wouldn't sell it for anything, ever... :D
 
Hey Architect,

Fair enough, I miss-read what you wrote.

Point of fact you are correct, if you can get 75% back selling most custom knives anywhere, your lucky. Most custom knives do not hold their value.

There are several reasons for this.

Regarding factory knives, I have no doubt that some do have very high returns. I used to set up at a lot of NKCA Shows and learned alot about Case knives from the experts at those shows.

Same thing with some of the Military and antique knives. No matter what the collectible there will always be some that continue to be sought after.

Of course these collectibles and factory knives have little or no bearing on the custom knife market.

As for being just another "poster" I have to disagree with you.

There are numerous members here who are not merely "posters". This is due directly to their expertise in many different areas regarding custom knives.

Many of the people who post here are routinely interviewed or have their knive featured in different articles in numerous knife and gun magaziens.

Do I try and teach others....yes I do.
I understand that not everyone agrees with me and some, for whatever reason take it personally.

However, you have to give credit where credit. Do you really think I would be interviewed for several magazine articles a year, asked to give seminars, asked to judge, write articles for magazines, etc.

Perhaps most importantly be able to make a living buying and selling custom knives if at least most of what I say was false?

Again, I go back to why don't the other custom knife dealers offer the same guarantee I do when it comes to trading in a previous purchase. Do you have an answer for that?

Just as if I made a post regarding grinding Talonite or drilling Titanium and there were some inaccuracies I would expect Tom Mayo to correct me. Why? Because he has the back ground and experience to do so.

Just as people listen to Jerry Hossom on this and other forums about working different types of steel. Why? Becasue he has the back ground and experience to talk about about with a great deal of accuracy.

Like it or not, mostly because they have earned it. Some of the posters here opinions are taken with a higher regard than others.

Architect, perhaps people would give more merit to your opinions if you were to share your custom knife background with us.
 
In 5 years assuming it's still relatively unscathed, for a lot more than it cost you, because by then Mayo will be too old to make any more.............



:) Im already too old to make any more!!! :(
 
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