Custom knives - destined to be worthless?

someone in this thread said it depends on the maker. i totally agree. i really like walter brend's stuff. i read a thread posted in '99 where his model 2 was going for $600. well, that puppy is on the market for $1200-1300 right now. i'm positive that not every custom knifemaker's stuff doubles in value every 5 years, so yes this is an isolated example, but it illustrates the point - appreciation depends upon the maker/product.
 
Originally posted by Jerry Hossom
I agree with the essence of Chuck's point. It helps values a lot if we're dead... ;)
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Good point!

When I go to Blade West on the 19th, I am bringing an acutary, an appraiser and an adjuster. I will only buy knives from makers on the far side of the bell curve! :p
 
i read a thread posted in '99 where his model 2 was going for $600. well, that puppy is on the market for $1200-1300 right now.
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To double in value? That's excellent for a knife.

But it's still just a little over 7% compound annual return, a fairly mediocre investment return. It's not hard to find mutual funds that, even with the losses of recent years, averaged over 10% in that same time frame.

My point: even excellent knives are rarely even mediocre as investments.
 
Just because some folks want to liquidate some knives at low cost does not say custom knives are a bad purchase. A lot of collectors are buffs - they enjoy having custom work and don't mind selling at a loss to get some different custom knives to enjoy. For others, they might enjoy, say, a boat, spending hundreds on gas each weekend. But they enjoy it and therefore, it's worth it for them.

Seeing how many folks post what they bought and people go ga-ga ove it, folks get a charge out of this and it's part of the fun - sharing with like-minded people. And with so many new designs coming out from great makers, it makes you tend to reassess what you have and make changes to make room for having and handling these new designs. Or older designs, what have you.
 
If custom knives were truely worthless, there would not be 4000 custom makers, and 50 shows a year being held across the US.

That being said. Most custom knives are not good investments for 3 main reasons:

1) Collectors, being collectors generally buy what they like. They are buying for personal pleasure with little or no thought towards investment potential.

2) Most custom knives are overpriced for the quality of work. Too many makers want the prices the makers who are tops in their market are asking. While their posititon is no where near the top.

But hey, you don't ask, you don't get.

3) Most custom knife makers do not pay enough attention to the business side of their custom knife business. Specifically marketing. They fail to keep their name out there and fresh to the next group of collectors.

Now that being said, yes there is excellent investment potential in custom knives. This is not a casual comment from a casual collector. My next comment is for those who have a bias (for whatever reason) against dealers. I base my comments on having bought and sold Millions of Dollars worth of custom knives. I am not alone in this category, most of the major full time dealers can make this same claim.

Having been around for 18 years now. I have seen thousands of knives that I would deem "investment grade" knives.

Now three things come into play here. First what is your desired ROI (return on investment) and in what time period. Specifically, are you looking long term or short term or both? Also what is your level of "Risk Aversion".

If you want to make money with custom knives. You have to treat them as you would any other investment. You do your homework, you don't fall in love with any one style or maker, you buy and/or sell when the time comes.

It probably wont' be as much fun and it will be more time consuming than being just a collector.

A very sophisticated buyer can make every knife purchase pay off. Profit percentage will differ with each knife.

Much like a stock portfolio, you have to put together a custom knife portfolio. It helps to be able to assign your own beta's and coeficeint variables, based on real world experience with custom knives. You can even come up with your own version of a P/E type ratio for makers, if you want to take it that far.

Revmic, a dealer's perspective is that of his client base. Ultimately, all trends are created by colletors/investors. It is that intial 10% of the buyers who jump in with both feet. They start the buzz and pass it along to other collectors and makers. Makers talk with other makers, find out a particular thing is selling...they start making it.

Personally speaking, yes I think long term and encourage my clients to do so as well. That is the main reason my business works on a regular basis with a limited amount of makers.

Are custom knives destined to be worthless. No more or less than any other consumer item produced. However, there are some products out there that for a variety of reasons, seem to hold their value and go up in value. Ultimately, they become collectors items, and then over time they are considered "investments".

I don't agree with a maker dying will make their knives more collectible. Lots of dead makers out there you never heard of. If the maker didn't make their knives desierable while they were alive. Chances are they won't be desireable after they die. Even then it is usually short-term. Again, there are exceptions to every rule.

As usual I agree with Paul, buy what you like.

But if you don't do your homework and you buy a knife destined to lose value. Don't complain when you go to sell it and it and it does lose it's value.

Whether you think custom knives are an investment or you don't think they are...ultimately you are right.

This is a great thread. These come around every 6-8 months. It's always interesting to read what the true driving force of custom knives thinks. That would be you, the buyer of these knives!
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
To double in value? That's excellent for a knife.

But it's still just a little over 7% compound annual return, a fairly mediocre investment return. It's not hard to find mutual funds that, even with the losses of recent years, averaged over 10% in that same time frame.

My point: even excellent knives are rarely even mediocre as investments.
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true & astute observation gol, but i wasn't referring to knives as investments in a retirement sense.. i was merely speaking in absolute terms of either an increase or decrease in value, which i believe the author of this thread was mentioning. if you wanna retire right, you get into the many avenues of real estate investment!

my knives are for keeps, not for sale or trade.
 
Well, I bought a couple of Mayo's that are probably worth double or more than what I paid. Because all of the knives I have are left handed, I don't expect to make a killing. But to me, making a killing is not what it's about. I've sold a couple customs (no my Mayo's aren't for sale!) and lost a fair amount of money. But I figured that yeah maybe I didn't get what I paid for them, but they sold within 2 days with lots of inquires. I knew I priced them to sell, and they did. The way I figured, I didn't like the knives and that having money was more important that storing another knife that I don't like and don't use. In fact I have a couple of left hand customs that I need to clear out but I want to update to a gold status. Initially I had a gold memeber staus but it lapsed. I was surpised that Spark didn't notify or I would have done it earlier. I just haven't gotten
around to it. Customs worthless? No. If you do your homework and buy from the better makers, I think in the long run the value will go up. And I'm talking 10 years or better. In my situation I find that left hand customs sell fast. As a southpaw there is just about a zero seconary market for left hand customs. I buy them because I enjoy them, if the apreciate in value, so much the better.
 
Buy NUMISMATIC (coins and paper money) items ONLY.

A custom knife appeals to ONE buyer....the first.

There is NO depth to the collector knife market and never will be.

They can be enjoyable.......to you.......

They WILL be the most hated objects your heirs ever saw.

I have a knife "collection" that has come from deciding I needed a knife that was DIFFERENT from what I had.

I have never bought a CUSTOM and probably never will.

They are highly personal and if you don't have money to burn, should be avoided if there is the slightest CHANCE you may need to sell them.


:(
 
Originally posted by Gollnick
...To make money as a collector, you have to be there at the right time AND be able to tell the future Monet from the future Clause Hergishimer....Clause who?...
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Hey, I resent that! I have a Clause Hergishimer hanging in the bathroom. It's from his "Brown" period, I believe and I picked it up for a song when I was still flush. The strokes are forceful and demanding; the colors are sublime - it is often showered with compliments and praise. This work is the perfect counterpoint to my signed First Edition of "Jokes For The John".

And it's "Klaus", thank you very much.

;) ;) ;)
 
Originally posted by Lavan
Buy NUMISMATIC (coins and paper money) items ONLY.

A custom knife appeals to ONE buyer....the first.

There is NO depth to the collector knife market and never will be.

They can be enjoyable.......to you.......

They WILL be the most hated objects your heirs ever saw.

I have a knife "collection" that has come from deciding I needed a knife that was DIFFERENT from what I had.

I have never bought a CUSTOM and probably never will.

They are highly personal and if you don't have money to burn, should be avoided if there is the slightest CHANCE you may need to sell them.


:(
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I really wonder if you read ANY of the posts above, cause it sure doesnt look like it!!! :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes:

You are certainly entitled to your opinion........but that does NOT make you an expert!!!! :eek:
 
Don't just look at the prices knives are getting on the internet. There is still a market outside the internet.

Also, prices you see on the boards are many times generated by someone wanting to turn around and get another knife asap and they don't want to wait until they can sell their knife for what they might have in it.

Personally, I don't really buy "fad" knives anymore. Mainly, I want to use them and I can't stand the thought of beating up a knife that might have cost me big bucks, or a knife I bought "cheap" but is worth a lot of money. That doesn't mean I don't like them anymore. I've just changed the way I buy.

Like the the markets, knives run in cycles. They are in a down cycle right now. They'll bounce back.
 
I enjoy reading the responses in this thread.

My policy is simple. Work hard, save a lot and later when you have a tidy sum, how much that knife costs is almost irrelevant. By then, you are just plain happy because the money part just doesn't bother you at all. :D
 
If being a retired pawnbroker does not make me an expert in what retains value, nothing does.

While you collect things, the prime motivator is your enjoyment and indulgence of YOUR ..immediate..desires.

As a compromise, buy a bond or make a bank deposit in the same amount as your purchase and you should be OK.

There are OTHER better investments, but that one should be simple enough for anyone to follow.
 
A sound investment strategy is to identify how the masses are responding to the market and do the opposite. Or better yet, don't even look at the market and stay consistent. Monkeys throwing darts at a stock report often do better than the "experts".
In knife buying terms, a knife is priceless if it covers all the bases of utility, form and style that can only be determined by the buyer. Oddly enough, I look at my investment results in terms of how many custom knives can be bought from a good day in the market. Knives may or may not be a "good" investment, but good investing will allow you to buy more custom knives.
 
Lavan, are you trying to tell us that because you were a pawnbroker that we should consider you an expert on the value of custom knives? I would rather put my faith in people like Paul Basch or Les Robertson or any of the others that truely are experts in this field. Since you say you have never bought a custom knife and probably never will, how would you know anything about their ability to retain value?

If you want to collect knives as an investment, it is totally possible to do so. There are many makers who's knives make great investments.

Personally, I collect custom Bowies because I like them and have not been concerned about how well they retain their value. The fact that I am getting knives from the likes of Ron Newton, Jerry Fisk, John Fitch, Michael Connor and Roger Massey leaves me quite confident that if I want to sell them in the future they will have retained their value very well.

Edited to put in a word that had been left out.
 
That is exactly what provoked my response:

"I have never bought a CUSTOM and probably never will."

There is an obvious bias here and no amount of explaining will get around that.

I have one too.........I am a custom knifemaker.....but I have looked at this whole thing for a LONG time and can tell you for certain that people like Les and Dan and Larry cant make a living losing money!!!!
 
Come on guys. Can't you see Lavan is just having some fun with you. Just trying to stir the pot as it were.

As he is obviously someone who has some knowledge of collectibles. He knows that only a Moron would make inflamtory statments about something he knows nothing about.

So Lavan, thanks for trying to "lighten" up the discussion.

Now lets here from some people who have actually at least thought about owning a custom knife.
 
averageguy,

Please correct me if I'm wrong. If a custom knife maker sells a knife, and that knife ages- regardless of number of owners, or multiples of similar knives made by the same knife maker, he/she doesn't get "residuals," does he/she? No, I think not. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would think that the initial sale, and subsequent sales of the same design, would be what was most important... By the time a knife becomes a "collectible," the knife maker could well have gone on to other designs, retired, or even have gone on to his or her last reward... Maybe I'm too jaded, but you'll have to ask the knife makers what THEY think about the value of their works sold long before... Frankly, I think they'd only be mildly interested. They're too busy working on their next blade, to dwell in the past...

Regards and Respects,
Carter, oldpaladin, out...
 
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