Custom makers - outsourcing and assistants

This is a very interesting thread and I may have a unique view. I made approx. 13 knives on my own. They were knives, but just barely:D They took me about 1-2 weeks each to construct!

After these 13 knives were made I went to work for Bob Dozier. I worked for Bob for about 3 1/2 years. I started out sweeping the shop and doing menial chores. I saved Bob from having to do them. Gradually I learned every job in the shop and was running the shop. This was like going to school! I made Dozier Knives....NOT Krein Knives! This was an apprenticeship.

I strongly feel that apprenticeships are a GREAT thing for the "Handmade" Knife Industry!! This is how our "craft/industry" can advance! If everyone has to learn the same things the HARD way much is lost!

One of the sayings from the Arts and Crafts movement was....

The life so short, the craft so long to learn

By studying under a "Master" we can more quickly master the basics and go on to the more challenging and creative work. Having an apprentice also allows the Master Craftsman to concentrate on the more challenging work.

On my own I could only see so far....standing on the shoulders of a Master I can now see much farther!

I am fortunate that I am now able to have an apprentice. This allows me to finish more pieces and to keep my prices down. So far I have Ryan (my apprentice) trained to cut out blade blanks.....I think he actually cuts closer to the line than I can!:eek: I am now training him to profile grind the blades to the line. As he becomes skilled at one task and gets ahead of me, I then train him to start on the next step.

If you think this is easy or does not take a lot of time AND money you are very wrong! With time this investment of time and money will pay off in a big way! It will increase my production numbers WITHOUT decreasing quality....to me that is a good thing!

It will also help train a potential new artisian in the knife industry!!

Sooo.... I feel that a strong apprentice program is a VERY GOOD thing in our industry or any industry that has Craftsmen!

Tom
 
Keith Montgomery said:
It doesn't matter to me at all if the grunt work is done by someone other than the maker of the knife. I don't think that I need to be informed of this. If any of the major work is done by anyone other than the one that puts his/her name on the knife, I want to know about it.
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Bingo. :)

Roger
 
And an Amen to that brother Tom.

As far as I can tell this whole thread seems centered on the question;
"should the maker reveal every last contribution to the final product no matter how small or menial that task may have been?" Some of us think "Yes"
Others, "No" and still others, "Not neccessarily, it depends".

Anyway, I've said my piece and made my peace with the issue, from here on I'll just observe.
 
Tom Krein said:
This is a very interesting thread and I may have a unique view. I made approx. 13 knives on my own. They were knives, but just barely:D They took me about 1-2 weeks each to construct!

After these 13 knives were made I went to work for Bob Dozier. I worked for Bob for about 3 1/2 years. I started out sweeping the shop and doing menial chores. I saved Bob from having to do them. Gradually I learned every job in the shop and was running the shop. This was like going to school! I made Dozier Knives....NOT Krein Knives! This was an apprenticeship.

I strongly feel that apprenticeships are a GREAT thing for the "Handmade" Knife Industry!! This is how our "craft/industry" can advance! If everyone has to learn the same things the HARD way much is lost!

One of the sayings from the Arts and Crafts movement was....

The life so short, the craft so long to learn

By studying under a "Master" we can more quickly master the basics and go on to the more challenging and creative work. Having an apprentice also allows the Master Craftsman to concentrate on the more challenging work.

On my own I could only see so far....standing on the shoulders of a Master I can now see much farther!

I am fortunate that I am now able to have an apprentice. This allows me to finish more pieces and to keep my prices down. So far I have Ryan (my apprentice) trained to cut out blade blanks.....I think he actually cuts closer to the line than I can!:eek: I am now training him to profile grind the blades to the line. As he becomes skilled at one task and gets ahead of me, I then train him to start on the next step.

If you think this is easy or does not take a lot of time AND money you are very wrong! With time this investment of time and money will pay off in a big way! It will increase my production numbers WITHOUT decreasing quality....to me that is a good thing!

It will also help train a potential new artisian in the knife industry!!

Sooo.... I feel that a strong apprentice program is a VERY GOOD thing in our industry or any industry that has Craftsmen!

Tom
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Excellent post! :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
Tom Krein said:
It will increase my production numbers WITHOUT decreasing quality....to me that is a good thing!
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Tom - this is all very nice, but remember that many collectors also value uniqueness & rarity. You cannot increase production while maintaining a given level of scarcity.
 
Joss said:
Tom - this is all very nice, but remember that many collectors also value uniqueness & rarity. You cannot increase production while maintaining a given level of scarcity.
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True!

At some point it's no longer a custom knife made by Joe Blow.
It becomes a knife designed by Joe Blow made by Jack (cutout/profile), Joe (main bevel)john (heat treat),jim (handle profile), jeff (assembly), marked by Joe, made in Joe Blows shop.

At what point does it cease to become a Joe Blow knife?
Each buyer should be told who worked on that knife and who did what...because it DOES make a difference to the buyers. Every time someone else works on that knife ,to me ,it becomes a bit less than a Joe Blow knife...the uniqueness fades.
 
Joss said:
Tom - this is all very nice, but remember that many collectors also value uniqueness & rarity. You cannot increase production while maintaining a given level of scarcity.
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Joss,

First I would like to say that I am not building high end art pieces that sell for thousands of dollars. I am building high quality working pieces. I am also not talking that big of an increase in numbers. I simply can't keep up with the current demand and am doing everything in my power to increase production WITHOUT decreasing quality or increasing prices. Look around prices are increasing on EVERYTHING!! I have not had to raise my prices in several years due to finding ways to make an extra knife here or save a dollar there.

Second, I think you missed my point in the above post. My point is that apprentices actually will better our craft substantially. It takes a huge investment in time and money to train an apprentice!! I personally owe Bob Dozier a huge debt of gratitude for taking me under his wing!!

Apprentices also allow the "Master Craftsman" more time to be creative and more time to do the more difficulty parts of crafting a knife.

Tom
 
shappa said:
True!

At some point it's no longer a custom knife made by Joe Blow.
It becomes a knife designed by Joe Blow made by Jack (cutout/profile), Joe (main bevel)john (heat treat),jim (handle profile), jeff (assembly), marked by Joe, made in Joe Blows shop.

At what point does it cease to become a Joe Blow knife?
Each buyer should be told who worked on that knife and who did what...because it DOES make a difference to the buyers. Every time someone else works on that knife ,to me ,it becomes a bit less than a Joe Blow knife...the uniqueness fades.
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Shappa,
You are a chef, do you do ALL of the prep work, or do you have assistants that do some of the "line" work? Do you oversee them to make sure they are doing quality work? If so doesn't this allow you more time to be creative and allow you to make more of your master pieces?

I do understand what you are saying I am just asking you to look at it from a new perspective.

Thanks.

Tom
 
Tom Krein said:
Gradually I learned every job in the shop and was running the shop. This was like going to school! I made Dozier Knives....NOT Krein Knives! This was an apprenticeship.
Tom
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Webster's Definition of apprentice:
- one who is learning by practical experience under skilled workers a trade, art, or calling.

Tom, as I stated in a previous post, I'm all for a strong apprenticeship program for the handmade knife industry. However in my opinion the fact that you ran the shop and made Dozier knives, not Krein knives, stretches the definition of apprentice a bit.

JD listed the menial task his apprentices generally perform in one of his post, and I would have no problem purchasing one of his knives under those conditions, however I would not purchase from a handmade maker if I new his apprentice made all or most of the knife. And I should be told this so I can make that decision.

I believe there needs to be a designated time when the apprentice leaves his "teacher" and moves on to make his own knives.
 
It is true that the old masters had apprentices do most of their work. They even had to do it in the masters' style - not their own. Art history is riddled with stories of disenchanted students who covertly added to or changed their master's work. It's more common than you think. Has that fact devalued the worth of the Mona Lisa? (or other similar works) Not one bit. Added to it, in fact.


I still can't understand why it's such a big deal...is this some sort of pissing contest or something?


Sole Authorship is about novelty...not quality control.

What if the apprentice is actually better than the master at a specific skill? Would it not make sense to delegate the work accordingly?


I'm not against "sole authorship"...I think there's a time and place for it...just like primitive knifemaking - I really like it actually. There's just too much chest-thumping whenever the subject comes up. Everybody should be allowed to work the way that makes them most comfortable, productive and happy. I, for one, would be really pissed if all my customers decided that my work suddenly needed to be like someone else's. Let the maker explore his own craft, in his own way. Do your research before you buy. Be an informed customer. And enjoy the knives...!
 
I've been sitting here reading and re-reading this thread for most of the night. Yea, I know I don't have an exciting life.LOL

The uniqueness of each custom knife is a part of that knife and a part of that purchase. It has a value as is the design, materials, and how it was made.
Yes, prices have gone up on everything. That is why each part of the knifemaking process has gained importance to me. I have to make my price vs value choices...and the knowledge of who created the knife influences my choices.

I understand trying to keep up with demand, coming out with new designs and not wishing to raise prices.
I also understand the importance of the apprentice.

Thanks for things to think about.
 
Daniel Koster said:
I still can't understand why it's such a big deal...is this some sort of pissing contest or something?

Sole Authorship is about novelty...not quality control.
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I don't for a moment accept your characterization that sole authorship is about "novelty". But to address your first point - no, it's not a pissing contest. It's about buyer preference. Some buyers will prefer sole authorship pieces. Some won't have a preference one way or the other. And, as WWG pointed out, a great many may have no clue or care as to how a knife is made in the first place.


Roger
 
Tom: I am pleased to listen and hear of your experiences. You define another layer to a complex issue. To Bob Dozier's benefit, his knives don't seem, to me, to have lost any value or demand whatsoever in having you and who-knows-who-else in his shop working alongside him. A valid example.

As the sheer number of workers grow, it appears that this would be prevalent towards the working/user knives in a custom maker's shop. These are the guys who require a bit of a production line. Their cost would seem to make the sole-builder collectibility aspect less important.

My original inspiration was a single apprentice or partner with a maker. Sometimes unheard of, but other times quite prominent (see my examples in the first post). I happened to be thinking about more collector-based pieces. Tom showed us another aspect.

I submit that having a partner in a shop would be an ideal workforce. It would allow each person to concentrate their skills, and the sheer presence of the other would keep a solo person motivated to keep working without easily being distracted as he would be if he was alone. Plus, the human condition allows we are social animals. Having another person would help fulfill this need. (How many solo knifemakers relish the opportunity to talk/share with others about their work. The forums are ALIVE with them!)

As EVERYONE has mentioned, disclosure is paramount. Apprentice or partner? There is a large distinction.

  • An Apprentice serves the Master and the overall credits, design, and critical finishing areas *should* be designated to the Master.
  • A Partner allows that both individuals share equal billing, and that some areas may have been designed/finished by either.
I can add nothing more here, as you guys have written reams of digestible opinions and thoughts. Continue.

Coop
 
Coop,
I tend to agree with what you are saying about working knives..... but, there are anamolies as you pointed out the Loveless/Merritt knives. How about Cooper Knives, Jody Sampson worked under Cooper and they have always been very collectable.

These are just two examples.

The Graham Brothers are a great example of Partners! They both bring different skills to the shop.

I agree with the social aspect! I tend to get more work done when I have someone in the shop. Even if they are in the other room. I can't really explain it, but it it true.

Tom
 
No one argues that sole authorship is bad. No one really argues that a partner is bad. No one cares if there is a shop behind the name.

What everyone cares about is the truth. This is where the lying starts among knifemakers. For some reason nobody lies and says his heat treatment was done by Pennsylvania Heat Treaters when they really did it themselves. Nobody lies and says their knife was water-jet cut or CNCed when they really did it with files. Nobody lies and says their blades were made in a shop by themselves and two others, but really they did the whole thing themselves. Why is that?

When you stamp your name on a knife, the uneducated buyer assumes you made it. When your website, literature etc. show pictures of only Joe Blow making knives but gives no credit to any apprentice, the uneducated buyer assumes Joe Blow does it all. When your show table is populated only by the maker and family, the uneducated buyer assumes you did all the work. There are a lot of knifemakers who lie through ommission. They never really tell how their knives are made. There are a few knifemakers who directly lie about their product. There are other knifemakers who play games with marks, one mark is for shop, one is for mid-tech, one is for the shop after the original maker died. Just another form of obfuscation to make the buyer believe they are getting a knife they aren't.

The lying is funny, because there are many small shops that are well known and respected and they make just as much money as the liers (e.g. Ruana, Randall) but they have full disclosure. An honest knifemaker tells how his knives are made. An honest knifemaker gives credit to those who participated in the work.

I won't buy a knife from a maker who doesn't tell the full story about how they make their blades. I won't buy from a maker who I think is lying. I like knives that are sole authorship, but partnerships are good too. I just want to know who. If you don't heat treat your knives, I am prejudiced and relegate you to amatuer status. If you outsource a lot of your work and pretty much assemble and finish, I am prejudiced and relegate you to mid-tech finisher. If you crank out 100s of a single pattern, I am not really interested, I like uniqueness. But then I'm a poor cheap bastid :)
 
Knife making is a learned art. As an example I've cut and pasted part of the bio of Ricardo Velarde below.

"The more I learned about knifemaking the more questions I had. One evening, while I was reading a knife magazine, I found an advertisement for a knifemaker that lived only a couple of hours from me. Because I was so new to the field I had had no idea who S.R. Johnson was. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't know who he was in the knife-making world because I would have never found the courage to telephone him. I called Steve Johnson of Manti, Utah and began pestering him with questions. During our initial conversation he asked me what I did for a living and I told him I make equipment for the sport of falconry. Another lucky break for me - it turned out one of his sons had been trying to learn about falconry. Soon thereafter, I spent an afternoon with Steve and his son flying falcons, and Steve asked if I would like to see some of his knives before I went home. That evening was a major turning point in my career because after seeing Steve's knives I had a clear mental image of the height of artistic perfection I wanted to achieve.

I spent as many weekends with Steve working in his shop as he would allow me. I never spent a day with him that I did not learn something new. He was very gracious and generous with his knowledge and never made me feel small. I will always credit Steve with being my mentor and inspiration. He taught me to never stop looking for detail in the pursuit of perfection. He also gave me the confidence to develop my own style and creative ideas.

Dietmar Kressler invited me to display my knives at the 1997 Munich show. After the show he asked me to work for him in his shop the following summer. I spent most of the summers of '98 & '99 working for Dietmar learning to make integrals. In the short period of time Dietmar and I spent together he greatly influenced my style and methods of knifemaking. He taught me his technique of using hand files to accomplish symmetry and looking for light distortions to find mistakes.

Obviously, my style is a combination greatly influenced by Johnson and Kressler. My hope is to incorporate the best of both their styles to produce knives of excellent quality and workmanship. I would like to steal a statement from Steve's brochure to describe my commitment and attitude towards my career - "In the challenge of making every knife, I will try to do my best job to finish with a flawless as possible knife."

Kindest Regards,

Ricardo Velarde"

Maybe some of those knives were not sole authorship but what an end result-another great knifemaker.
 
I have decided to re-emerge only to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and the way in which all participants handled themselves.

While we were certainly all not of like mind, a cordial and collegeal tone was maintained at all times, proving to me that we all understand the meanining of respect.
 
I haven't read all the responses, but I'll give you my "off-the-cuff" response. I think that the difference lies in what people are told up front. I, as an informed buyer (and it IS the responsibility of the consumer to be informed), am fully aware of makers who work in teams on their creations. I'm told UP FRONT however that this is the case. If a maker outsources, or works with a collaborator AND IS OPEN AND HONEST ABOUT THIS, then I don't really care. I know what I'm buying. Its when a maker isn't completely honest about what they do and how they do it that I take exception.

Pat and Wes? Phillip and Barry? All of these gentlemen are great in my book.
 
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