custom paring knife : alvin johnson

Good review. Once again it brings up the question about why almost all modern folder blades are made of some kind of stainless steel. Why not make a Sebenza with a 1095, 52100, 5160, L6 or some other good high carbon steel blade? That way those in the know could either buy a stainless bladed or non stainless bladed version depending on individual preference and type of work to be performed. I would certainly buy a Sebenza or Spyderco folder with an 0170-6, 52100, 1095, etc., blade if given the option. Yes, I know Benchmade makes some of their folders with M2 and D2 blades, but even these are relatively exotic steels compared to good old 1095 or O1.

Now if Busse ever gets around to making an INFI bladed folder that would be a different matter altogether. :)
 
Yeah.........a folder in L6 would rock, any folder for that matter!

Cerberus
 
cerberus said:
Yeah.........a folder in L6 would rock, any folder for that matter!
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Cerebus, it is to my understanding that L6 is better served in larger knives, I thought it was called a shock steel, being better suited for choppers than edge retention. Maybe someone can comment.
 
As Cliff is pointing out, the so called big knife steels work great in smaller knives when the hardness is high enough. Remember, the best straight razors ever made were made out of high carbon steel. You had to take care of them, but man if you did they worked very well indeed.
 
Alvin sure likes the high Rc carbons steels. About 10 years ago he sent me a moose stockman with his blades in it, for me to test. It sure held an edge a lot longer than anything I had, and was ground nice and thin so cutting was easy. Too bad he wanted it back...

I still have the broken sheepsfoot blade from it, though (it was broken when he sent it to me).

I wouldn't mind getting a knife or two from him, they work well.
 
Steelhed said:
Good review. Once again it brings up the question about why almost all modern folder blades are made of some kind of stainless steel.
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Because modern stainless steels perform very well and they don't rust and these are primary reasons why most customers want this type of knife.

Why not make a Sebenza with a 1095, 52100, 5160, L6 or some other good high carbon steel blade? That way those in the know could either buy a stainless bladed or non stainless bladed version depending on individual preference and type of work to be performed. I would certainly buy a Sebenza or Spyderco folder with an 0170-6, 52100, 1095, etc., blade if given the option. Yes, I know Benchmade makes some of their folders with M2 and D2 blades, but even these are relatively exotic steels compared to good old 1095 or O1.
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Basic economics and product liability issues: the carbon steels you listed will rust quicker than you can look at them and for folders that means the pivot area will rust and the knife won't work correctly. This is big, big problem for tight tolerance, linerlocking type blades. Sure I know a small % of customers will give their carbon steel bladed folder the daily attention it needs, but most customers won't. And everybody forgets once and while. Then the maker gets the knife back.

I have just started to offer folders with M2 HSS blades at RC 64 coated with TiAlN which does a good job at inhibiting rust. TiAlN is about 3000 Vickers and is pretty tough stuff.

Here's a pic of an alu handled folder with a M2 blade:

avanoir_1.jpg
 
Steelhed said:
Why not make a Sebenza with a 1095, 52100, 5160, L6 or some other good high carbon steel blade?
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Much is in the hardening, note the graphs which show how quickly you lose strength and toughness if you vary the hardness by just a couple of points, this opposes the statements Reeve has made which argue that hardness isn't critical to performance hence the lower HRC he runs on his knives. Alvin's perspective on such issues is in direct contrast to Reeve so it isn't likely they would choose similar steels. I have the info on O1 and M2 as well, provided by Alvin, I'll link them up in the reviews to some on his O1 and M2 blade.

Kevin Wilkins said:
Because modern stainless steels perform very well ...
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That depends what you want them to do, if it is either cut really well, or be really tough they do neither well, not even a fraction of the performance of the tool steels.

...the carbon steels you listed will rust quicker than you can look at them and for folders that means the pivot area will rust and the knife won't work correctly.
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Folders have been made out of those steels for a long time, they continue to work well. As well many of those same liner locking folders use washers which oxidize rapdily and gum up the action easily.

I have just started to offer folders with M2 HSS blades at RC 64 ...
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Why 64 HRC?

-Cliff
 
Slip joint folders have used tool steel blades for years and how many of these have I seen that were rusted to hell and back? Many. That's one reason many companys went to stainless blades. Slip joints tolerate rust better than liner locking type folders. They still look like crap all rusted however.

Any folder will operate a long time if maintained perfectly. A carbon steel bladed folder requires a LOT more attention than stainless bladed folder. Most customers don't want to have to deal with that. A few do, but most don't.

:D I hope Crucible doesn't read your pronouncment on the failure of stainless steels to offer even a fraction of the cutting perfomance of carbon steels... they'd certainly just close up shop. :D
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
They still look like crap all rusted however.
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Some like the look of a patina, some don't, based on the popularity of many tool steel blades (Bark River, Busse, Swamp Rat, ABS) I don't see it as a tiny segment of the industry.

Some tool steels will patina rapidly, L6 for example can do so while you are eating an apply. Some like M2 are much more corrosion resistant and as long as you are not soaking them it isn't an issue.

Alvin had blades in 1095 and M2 compared to stainless by meat workers, corrosion was an issue on 1095, it wasn't on M2, so even constant exposure to blood isn't strong enough corroder.

I hope Crucible doesn't read your pronouncment on the failure of stainless steels to offer even a fraction of the cutting perfomance of carbon steels...
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It is based on materials data, I assume it would be obvious to them already. It isn't as if performance is the only criteria upon which knives are sold or steel is selected.

-Cliff
 
Folder rust around the pivot and on the unexposed parts that are hard to clean and oil. Slip joints can be more or less soaked in oil; linerlocking folders don't usually like that as oiling the lockbar / blade contact surface causes sticking. The issue isn't on the blade portion of the blade. Discoloration and staining are not the problem; pitting is the problem.

John Juranitch in his book "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening" writes at length of his experiences sharpening knives for the meat industry. Interestingly enough he did a blind test using identical knife, one set made of stainless and the other of carbon steel. The stainless blades consistantly outcut the carbon steel blades – much to his and the surprise of the meat cutters who were using the knives. BTW That is also the very best book on sharpening I have ever read. If anyone has trouble sharpening a knife, read and understand that book and your worries are over.

M2 steel rusts like crazy. I have made several 100 knives from it. I can't imagine anyone finding any different unless they live in a desert.
 
Juranitch is cryptic about why and doesn't offer very much detail. I disagree about the usefulness of his book. It is very opinionated, and you can learn from it, but a lot of it, especially concerning sharpening with power tools is irrlevant to a normal person w/o grinder, etc. I'd say there is a lot to agree with but also a lot to disagree with also.

One thing about "old time" carbon steel knives, is that they were sharpened using an oil stone. The oil from this process generally helps keep any rust and pitting away until a good patina provides the final protection. Wilkins, buy a case copperlock in chrome vanadium, sharpen it on an oil stone and use it all the time for a month (or 5 years for that matter). I'll bet you won't have any rust or pitting problems that will impair the function of the knife.
 
Mr. Juranitch isn't "cryptic" in the book. He describes the situation in some detail. He doesn't go into a scientific procedure to try and explain his results, he simply presents them as they were. Draw your own conclusions.

Everyone I've suggested the book to has been able to quickly understand how to simply sharpen a knife from it. No power tools needed. But if it didn't work for you, oh well.

I have had pocket knives from Case and others for the last 40 years. I don't need any more to know how they rust.

I also don't know how I can say it any clearer but I will give it one more try: slip joint (or lockback) pocket knives will take a good deal more rusting and still function more or less OK than will a linerlocking knife.

The reason many makers are hesitant to offer carbon steel blades at all, or to other than known customers is because you get too many returns and problems with the knives. If Cliff Stamp wants to order a folder from me, I'd make the blade from whatever steel he chooses (if I have it) because I think he is experienced enough to keep it from rusting or to accept responsibility for the damage if he doesn't. I would also tell him that I cannot warranty the knife for rust related problems. I tell this to anyone who buys a carbon steel bladed knife from me. I want the customer to be happy with the knife they order. That's in my interest and theirs. Part of my job is to to advise the customer, based on his wants, needs and experience.

Bob Terzuola, in his book on tactical folders, even says he started out making folder with D2 blades, but had too many problems regarding corrosion, so he switched to stainless steel for his blades. Now that man has made a few knives over the years...:D
 
Kevin Wilkins said:
Discoloration and staining are not the problem; pitting is the problem.
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This is worse with many of the high carbon steels, I have done salt water soak tests on ATS-34 vs 1095 for example and ATS-34 looks much worse with greater pitting.

The stainless blades consistantly outcut the carbon steel blades ...
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Which steels specifically and how were they heat treated and to what angles were they sharpened? Do you really think his results apply to blades custom hardened to the protocols described in the above?

As for a warrenty against rust, it isn't like the high carbon stainless blades are immune to this either, I don't dip my slipjoints in oil either. In fact I stopped oiling my knives, carbon and stainless a long time ago.

-Cliff
 
Mr. Wilkins, does your 40 year old carbon steel case lockback still function or has it been ruined by rust?

Mr. Wilkins, do you use damascus steel? Isn't the stainless damascus actually rarer than carbon steel damascus in custom knives?
 
I have several folders, including slipjoints, in high carbon steel. Some have developed a patina, some have a small amount of surface rust, nothing to be concerned about. One of these days I'll give them a once over and the rust will be gone, but the patina will stay.

I would love to see some high end folders in 1095 or M2 hardened up there like this paring knife. Although the average knife user might not take care of his tools and complain about rust, if CR offered a Sebenza like this, I'll bet it would fly off the shelves, and rust would not be a significant warranty issue. After all, you can hardly call Sebenza owners average knife users. :D They are nothing if not meticulous!
 
1095 or CV are the only steels to make a knife blade from. All stainless steel sucks for a knife blade. Save the ss for the trim in your bathroom.
 
I would think rust could be mitigated in the pivot area through modern manufacturing methods, i.e., a non corroding insert at the pivot point. Even with corrosion, and my personal experience has been that fairly minimal care prevents bad corrosion, a high carbon steel has certain desirable attributes over stainless in some situations. I wouldn't prefer one around salt water, but I live in Alaska, which is fairly wet most of the year, and I have had very little rusting problems with my knives so long as I keep them clean. I agree most people would still prefer stainless, but I think there is a market segment out there which would really like a high end folder done up with a good high carbon steel. I would that's for sure.
 
I think, when we're talking about pocketknives costing hundreds of dollars, we can quite laughingly declare "most of the market" as a moot point. ;)

I carried an old Hen & Rooster with carbon steel blades for years and never saw any rust. Granted, it had received the apple treatment as soon as I got it--cut an apple into wedges and stick each blade (this had three) in overnight. Pull the wedges off the next day and swish the knife around in a bowl of water and a little bit of dawn soap to get the apple juice out of the joints. Blades took on a very dark grey coating that lasted well through most pocketknife use and was, of course, easy to reapply when it wore off. Probably been about six years since I carried it--it had kinda' sharp bolsters that dug into me, but it was a great little knife. I'll dig it out of my footlocker tomorrow, but I'm willing to lay money down that it hasn't rusted.

My Greco folders are framelocks out of 8670 tool steel, do they count? :)
 
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