Custom V Custom

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Les Robertson

BANNED
Joined
Oct 10, 1998
Messages
3,565
I was reading the other thread. Once they get past two pages, it's to much to wade through.

Ok Paul, first you say you are looking for different members first "custom" knife. One made specifically for a customers needs.

As Para pointed out, you list yourself as a Custom Knife Purveyor. So does this mean you only sell "custom" knives (one of a kind).

If you place the order for the person to get a "custom" knife. Does that knife lose it's status as a custom knife. As the actual person who the knife is being "custom" made for is not ordering the knife. Is this now a "custom by proxy" knife?

Does this mean you will not sell knives that are not "custom" knives? If you do, then you aren't really a custom knife dealer. You are in fact a "custom" knife dealer.

As Senator pointed out with his Kit Carson Model 4. He feels it is a "custom" knife. Actually, it is not. Although he ordered the knife with "modifications" to meet his needs.
In fact he ordered a standard model with modifications. This is known as "Customizing" and is fact not a "custom" knife. However, it is a custom knife.

So how do we differntiate "custom" and custom".

Generally, this debate is started by someone who wants' one-ups-manship over another collector. See they are not satisfied with meerly having a one-of-a-kind. No, these pot stirrers want to try and change the widely accepted term of custom knives used in current knife lexicon.

Why is this, so they can feel more "special".

How about you collectors or makers who use the term "Handmade". Guess what, your knives are no longer hand made. I don't think any of us here can actually work and form steel with our bare hands.

Ok, So lets review.

"Custom" knife is now a One-of-a-Kind. This knife can never be duplicated. If so it loses its status and goes into the next category.

Custom knife. A knife that would be made within the guidelines of the KMG and/or the ABS.

Customized Custom Knife. A sub-set category that refers to a custom knife that more than two of that particular style or model have been made of. This knife is then modfied to suit the collectors needs.

The next sub-set is Hand-Tool Custom. This referes to a knife that formerly may have been called "handmade". These knives are made with hand tools only. Saw, File, BF Hammer, sharpening stone, etc.

The next sub-set is Power Tool Custom. This would refer to most of the knives made today. Any tool that requires some type of energy to run it. Fossil Fuel, Solar, Wind, etc.

Will there be exceptions to this. Yes, there are excpetions to every rule(s).

Granted the word custom has been overused and diluted. In the world of firearms they say "custom" handguns. They are not. These handguns are, for the most part built on pre-existing frames. They are Customized.

So for those of you who want to think of your made to order knife as special. Call it a one-of-a-kind. But only if it is one and not a customized version of an existing model.

As for the term handmade, that is right out. So for you makers who have that in your brochures or web sites. Please delete this, as these "custom" boys are sticklers for accuracy. After all lets face it, the first time you use that band saw to profile a blade, it's no longer a hand made knife.

So Paul, you will have to go back and re-do your signture line. As we all want to know are you a "custom" or a custom Knife Purveyor. Don't get mad at me, you started this.
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That's why I changed my signature line. Because Dealer, Broker and Purveyor are really 3 different things. But those of us who buy knives to re-sell seem to get tagged with all three names.

That's why I came up with Custom Knife Entrepreneur! As I do everything Dealers, Brokers and Purveyors do and much more!
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Besides the hours and pay are better.
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Hey, here is a thought. Why don't we agree that if a knife is made within the guidelines of the KMG and/or the ABS it is a CUSTOM KNIFE. That why we can get rid of the term hand made (and it's sub-sets) and customized custom knife.

We are then left with the term custom knife, with the only sub-set being "one-of-a-kind".
I say leave this sub-set as it is like being pregnant, you are or you aren't. As this will allow some seperation of custom knives.

I hope we can agree on this, if for no other reason that it will unconfuse Paul and allow him to leave his signature line intact!
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Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur!

Seller of "Custom", Custom, Customized Custom, Hand Tool Custom and Power Tool Custom knives.
 
Geez, Les - you left out "hand-crafted" and "limited production"!
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Now, I have to go buy more tape for my label maker!
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What ever happened to asking the maker exactly how he or she makes knives and how many were made and how many they intend to make later on?


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Tom Anderson
(Some Kinda Knives)

[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 03-01-2001).]
 
What's more important to me is how well made a knife is then how it was made.
CNC machines can give great tolerances for folders, so that's a plus. But a fine art knife, like one of Jeff Harkin's pieces also requires a lot of hand fitting of parts like the trap door. To build the best knife, use the best tool for the part of the knife you are working on.
To reiterate, I don't really care if there are a hundred more of a particular knife in my collection. What is important to me is, Do I like the knife?


[This message has been edited by Erikfsn (edited 03-01-2001).]
 
Gentlemen,

If you are going to interject common sense into this thread. Your posts will be deleted.

Tom, Hand Crafted is just a variant on Hand Made. Limited production does not come into play as a category because exactly what is limited production? Is is 5, 10, 100?

Remember phrases like "limited Production, Hand Crafted, New Whiting Crystals, Extra Strength, Maxium Strength.

This is no more than copy written by advertising departments to entice you to buy the product.

I mean is Maximum Strength Excedrin really Stronger than Extra Strength Tylenol?

It reminds of the joke about the 7 year old boy who goes to the local drug store and tries to by a box of Tampons. The old druggist grinning asks the boy why he wants these. Expecting a simple answer such as "my mom sent me to get these" he was quite surpried when he pointed to the box and said "see right here it says you can ride a bike, swim, play tennis, etc. The little boy looked up and said, I want these cause I can't do any of those things.
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Words can be used to inform or deceive, to calm or inflame.

Point is don't get to involved in semantics.

Case in point, when Chelsea came home from Stanford last summer. Hilary asked her if she had sex yet. Chelsea replied "not according to dad".
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Les Robertson
Usurper of Advertising/Marketing Lexicon, Doctor of Spin and stirrer of the "pot".
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I like to keep things simple. I call myself a "knifemaker" and the things I make and collect I call "knives." Am I wrong?
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Click on the "My Custom Knives" link in my signature. That'll take you to my website, where the page heading actually says "Custom and Semi-Custom Knives." What the hell does that mean? I dunno, but it was what I wanted to put at the top of my website. There's even a production knife or three on that page. But they belong to me and I'll call them whatever I darn well please. You guys can call them custom knives, "custom" knives, Custom knives, "Custom Knives", customized knives, customized "custom" knives, hand-crafted knives, handmade knives, benchmade knives, production knives, factory knives, mass-produced knives, forks, spoons, planes, trains, or automobiles for all I care. I'll just call them mine.
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Kelly, noticing that the master of semantics says not to get caught up in semantics.
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My Custom Knife Collection

Member NCCKG, SCAK, and AKTI

Deo Vindice

[This message has been edited by Senator (edited 03-01-2001).]
 
Les hit the nail on the head - terms like "Custom" "Best" "Perfection", etc. are just marketing labels. Everyone could have a different opinion of what they mean, no matter what dictionary/thesaurus they are holding under their arm.

We choose our "labels" by what WE understand (or wish) the term to mean to the people WE want to deal with. Should a knife that is made from ore refined by the maker and wood grown on his lot without the use of any store-bought tools mean something special to the owner? If it's not a "good" knife, why would it matter? If it's a FANTASTIC knife, you'll probably know it means a "great deal" to the maker by the price tag that's on it!

It's probably a pretty small world for those who look down on others who do not have the proper "upbringing" and actually cherish their Buck 110's!
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On the other hand, we should not automatically consider those who promote one "type" of knife (or "knife enthusiast") as condemming all others - unless they actually do.
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives

(This time I'm leaving my signature alone. For those of you who consider it politically incorrect, insert the words: "Nothing done on an automatic machine except the fasteners but most of those I modify on manual machines or by hand even though I use a $30.00 CAD program to design them and if you call I have an automatic answering machine that might pick up but do those things really count?"

And please send money for my new business cards and brochures!
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[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 03-01-2001).]
 
I still go with what I said in the other thread.
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Kelly, don't worry. Yours were made by Carson Custom Knives, Inc, so they are Custom
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and I made them with my hands, rather than my feet, so they are handmade instead of feetmade.

Les, your company name is Robertson's Custom Cutlery. Hmmm, we may both have to change our company names if everyone agrees with what you posted
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One of the more interesting compliments I received was "Man... these look so good, I thought they were factory!" (Guess I could have taken it either way!?)


Of course, there are folks who don't know the difference between pre-CITES elephant ivory and white Micarta until you tell them!
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Hmmmmmmm..... "Foot Crafted Knives?" that has a real "ring to it!" At least, it'd be different!
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Kit,

As Para pointed out, our opinions do not matter as we are both captilist swine who's only purpose for being involed in custom knives is to make money.

Consquently, anything we post has a hidden agenda veiled in duplicity.

As for changing out business names. I think we are ok. As I have always held that a custom knife is a custom knife and not a "custom" knife.

As I said earlier, those of you using common sense here will be have your posts deleted!
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I guess what I have been trying to do is point out how ridicilous this whole thing about Custom Knives.

We should be examining important questions such as:

If SS Minnow was only going on a 3 hour cruise why did the Castaways of Gilligan's Island have all that luggage?

Also, why do we park on a drive way and drive on a park way.

Why does the handrail on an escalator move just slightly faster than the escalator its self.

These are questions we need answers to!

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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
 
Thanks Les! (I needed the levity too). It has gotten a little hairy around here lately.

I only have one problem. What kind of collector am I if I like 'em all.

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Life is too ugly to carry a short knife

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 03-01-2001).]
 
Gus,

You are a KNIFE collector. Everything else is just symantics and as stated above, a means to an end.

This issue is like politics and religion. Neither side will ever convince the other side that their argument is valid because the other side isn't listening and doesn't care. It is one's opinion and we all know about opinions.

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Rs
Don
Medicine Man of the Extinct Fugowee Tribe
 
I thin Kelly may have pegged a big part of it
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" The real art of living is to keep alive the longing in human beings to become greater versions of themselves." Laurens Van der Post in memory of James Mattis
 
From Websters:

Main Entry: 2custom
Function: adjective
Date: 1830
1 : made or performed according to personal order
2 : specializing in custom work or operation <a custom tailor>

Main Entry: cus·tom-built
Pronunciation: 'k&s-t&m-'bilt
Function: adjective
Date: 1925
: built to individual specifications

Main Entry: cus·tom-made
Pronunciation: 'k&s-t&(m)-'mAd
Function: adjective
Date: 1855
: made to individual specifications

So is custom-made and custom-built the same thing as customized? Most of my non-factory knives are both custom-made and custom-built...

Who cares what they hell we call these things as long as we like them, right?

Maybe my next knife should be a true handmade. I'll have the maker mine the ore (using just his hands), mix whatever stuffs goes into the steel (he can use fire, but nothing else besides his bare hands), then use his hands (only hands, no tools or rocks or anything...just hands) to make the knife.
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Handmade.
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~Mitch

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My Hobby Page
 
No knife content.
As the comedian said.."I took a drug test yesterday and it came back negative. My boss was happy but my drug dealer has sure a problem now"
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Tom, I tried to grind a knife with my feet a few minutes ago. I couldn't get them high enough, cause of that "organic" tool rest that I have....Gonna try it from a step ladder tomorrow.
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Kit:

36 grit Regalloys are best for pedicures! Just kill the edges with your big toe first, then follow with a Trizact buff for that "uptown sheen!"

Knives. Man's oldest tool. Our latest dilemma?

Maybe we need to find a dictionary that was written in the 20th century. How many custom makers were there in 1855? My set of Knives annuals doesn't go back that far!
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(PUN - No reply required. There were probably more custom makers then than there are now, but we're gaining on them!)

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
I agree with you all! I didn't mean anything by the "definition" I was trying to get a subset of collectors with some really unique knives to assuage my addiction to see great knives by great makers. Was not aware of the debate being sorta new on the BFC scene. Did not take the time to read 2-3000 posts. Can someone condense it down to a few well stated sentences?

Thanks

PS Les read my reply in Whine and Cheese. I think it will explain a tad more.

(Wondering how one become a bigtime knife entrepeneur like my hero Les. Er. . . never mind, just wants him to reply to my email messages)



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Peace

Paul
Custom Knife Purveyor
"We support the new maker!"
I take Paypal. ask me how??
Circle P Knives
 
I don't believe I wasted my time skimming this whole thread! My definition of custom is Corbet Sigman! I don't believe that Corbet has laser cut blades and CNC produced handles. He does what I would describe as custom knives period. If you have ever seen his grinds, you would know what I mean. Dick
 
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