Customs Dealers – Affect on market?

[Kevin Jones]

Ever thought about where the custom knife market would be without dealers?

Not having been active in the industry prior to knife dealers or more precisely prior to internet dealers, I have found myself wondering as to how the market functioned. Collectors obviously bought straight from the maker but how? Through catalogs and shows I presume. I guess A.G. Russell was one the first dealers and I imagine he probably had the first catalog? I believe Abercrombie & Fitch sold early Scagel knives and I believe Loveless as well. At least I’ve seen sheaths marked as such.

Most think of dealers as primarily playing a supply chain role in the market, however I see them serving a much larger purpose. I can’t remember the last time I purchased a knife from a dealer, however I visit about a dozen dealer sites every day. Amazing how much a maker or collector can learn not just from the dealer’s expertise but form monitoring their websites.

• You can learn who’s who form maker’s bios.

• You can learn and monitor maker’s pricing.

• You can learn which makers are hot and which are not at any particular time.

• You can see good photos and read about thousands of knives at any particular time. This is extremely helpful with novice collectors.

• Some have very good knife tutorials and knife care information.

• You can tell which type and styles of knives are most popular and appreciate in price.

• Most dealers will consign collector’s knives, and in some cases collectors will actually realize the most return for their knives by choosing this method of sale by tapping the internet’s dealer’s worldwide collector network.

Maker’s benefit form dealer as much or more than collectors do. As dealers sponsor makers so to speak and promote their knives. Some dealers even have the expertise to help and teach them how to manage their businesses. Dealers help support the custom's secondary market, which in turns helps to support the makers primary markets.

Are there ways in which you feel dealers have hurt makers and/or collectors or held back market development?

I believe we all will agree some dealers are better than others, however the custom knife market is a better place as a result of them.

I hope some of you veterans can share some stories about the early days. Perhaps stories about before dealers and before the internet. And who were the first dealers and how were their operations different.

 

[Starkman1]

In my opinion, dealers certainly have their place in the market. Like anything else, a few bad ones may reflect poorly on the rest. My limited experience with one in particular has been nothing but positive.
Bob

 

[lwrhea]

From talking with buyers at the shows, the dealers are well known and mostly very respected for their wealth of information and the fact that they make customs available when otherwise facing a long wait. This can only help the market by getting individual maker's knives as well as creating buzz.
I have dealt with Les Robertson and Bob Neal and have nothing but good to say. From what I read of Mr. Russell's posts, I can see why he has succeeded and I like what I see, especially since he's a fellow Arkansan .

Lin

 

[Chuck Gedraitis Knives]

Without dealers there would a lot of hungry knifemakers. Dealers can save your show, it has happened for me numerous times, and I am grateful for it.

Dealers can make or break you. They can promote your knives on their websites, at shows and some even write articles for blade. They can help you raise your prices but if your knives aren't selling they can lower your prices by blowing them out, some might even start rumors about the quality of your work.

Before the internet, dealers and collectors had to go to shows to see and buy the newest knives. Yea you could describe it on the phone but the anticipation of seeing it in person really got frenzies going.

After the internet this didn't happen as much. Now a maker can send out mass emails to 100's of clients saying that a new knife is available and here is a picture. Now a customer can sit in the comfort of his home, paypal the money and wait for the knife to arrive. No driving to the airport, flying to a show, paying for a hotel room, waiting in line and rushing to a makers table only to find that he is already sold out!

 

[Russ Andrews]

Very early purveyors, that I had dealings with, were
Ted and Maureen Devlet, and Nate Posner ( owner of the
San Fransisco Gun Exchange.

Ted was definately a "Promoter". He and his cigar smoking wife,
Maureen were really carachters, and helped alot of makers along.

Just a couple early "Influences", that we don't hear much about.

 

[Joss]

From my standpoint, dealers provide a very useful service around:

1) Bringing to the market knives that are other wise hard to find. Like in any other business they help increase liquidity. A perfect example of that are the recent offerings of Nordic Knives, which has offered several pieces that are extremely rare (Huddson, Reverdy, Fogg,...). I actually think that many dealers don't do any of that, i.e., work hard on purchasing collections or place orders with impossible to find makers like Steinau and Hirayama (say, 1 order a year per maker). Maybe they have made the analysis that the market for this is too thin.

2) Permanent knife museum: for the makers on the internet, they offer to me and my peers an opportunity to take a look at a wide display of knives, and the "display" is constantly renewed. Though this doesn't benefit them directly, it keeps the excitement going in the collector community, which over the long term benefits everyone.

Because my current interest is in upper mid range pieces, I am less interested in the bread-and-butter offering of more standard knives, but I understand the value that there is in that for people who have a different focus or have not had the opportunity to go to shows.

 

[jjtjr]

Kevin, I think that the knife market would be considerably smaller without dealers. They provide instant gratification which can be nice. They introduce many new makers as well as informing many people of the work of existing makers.
I think that most important they promote the secondary market both selling and purchasing many knives that otherwise would not be seen by many people. I probably purchase 30-35% of my knives from dealers. Jim Treacy

 

[Kevin Jones]

Dealers are also instrumental in maintaining consistency and stability in customs pricing for the most part.
This is most evident as there are usually few surprises when dealer post new knives to their sites with the exception of a dealer or two who kinda leave makers and collectors wondering at times.

IMO, there's dealers that actually drive the market and influence pricing for some maker's knives in the secondary market.

Seems like most dealers have similar policies. Les Robertson and Bob Neal offer a very nice trade up policy, which I believe is especially attractive for new collectors. Most all offer a a several day inspection period in which the knife can be returned for a complete refund. There's one who only offers a site credit for returned knives.

Yep, the industry could do worst as these guys are a knowledgeable and enthusiastic group.

 

[notdos]

Before the interent, I assume a makers popularity had to be a gradual thing. It probably took years of attending shows and pressing the flesh for a maker to "arrive", if he ever did. It seems to me that this gradual growth meant deeper roots and probably greater longevity.
Today, with the existence of the internet, the growth can, and often is, meteoric. With this fast, sometimes explosive growth, comes shallow roots that can be more easily affected by the whims of the market. The upside of internet dealers is that the buying public has more choices than ever and most importantly has access to those choices from the comfort and convenience of their home.

Phillip

 

[2knife]

This may be an isolated incident, but worth telling. A few years back I bought a knife from a rising maker, then shortly later wanted to consign it to sell. When I contacted two dealers about it, the price they would buy it from me was minus 40% of what I paid. Because, apparantely the maker was known to give a 40% purchase discount to dealers.

Maybe this is normal? .. for me it didn't sound like music to my ears.
David

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Today, with the existence of the internet, the growth can, and often is, meteoric. With this fast, sometimes explosive growth, comes shallow roots that can be more easily affected by the whims of the market.

Man, no truer words have ever been spoken. This should be in the mindof every collector when he buys a knife.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

This may be an isolated incident, but worth telling. A few years back I bought a knife from a rising maker, then shortly later wanted to consign it to sell. When I contacted two dealers about it, the price they would buy it from me was minus 40% of what I paid. Because, apparantely the maker was known to give a 40% purchase discount to dealers.

Maybe this is normal? .. for me it didn't sound like music to my ears.

I would say that the 40% discount the maker gave the dealer was higher than normal, but as far as what the dealers were willing to pay for the knife, I find it makes perfect sense. It would be foolish to pay more for a second hand knife than you could get a new one for from the maker.

Dealers/purveyors/entrepreneurs beform a service for the makers and the buyers. For this service they get to make a profit. As long as they are honest, ethical and have a good head for business, they are good for the industry. I don't begrudge them one penny of the money they make. They earn it.

 

[Kevin Jones]

This may be an isolated incident, but worth telling. A few years back I bought a knife from a rising maker, then shortly later wanted to consign it to sell. When I contacted two dealers about it, the price they would buy it from me was minus 40% of what I paid. Because, apparantely the maker was known to give a 40% purchase discount to dealers.

Maybe this is normal? .. for me it didn't sound like music to my ears.
David

You will generally get the very least of any method of sale for most knives in a direct sale to a dealer, however most dealers will consign for a fee in the 10%-25% range.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Today, with the existence of the internet, the growth can, and often is, meteoric. With this fast, sometimes explosive growth, comes shallow roots that can be more easily affected by the whims of the market.
Phillip

Man, no truer words have ever been spoken. This should be in the mindof every collector when he buys a knife.

Couldn't agree more Anthony. :thumbup:

 

[Michael Lovett]

I feel that dealers have a very positive and well earned place in the market. They provide a needed service for all. And can greatly increase the pleasure of an acquisition.

 

[Kevin Jones]

As we discuss how knife dealers and dealer websites have changed and advanced the knife industry I realize how apparent it is that we just take the INTERNET for granted these days.

It's got to be right up there with fire and electricity on the list of man's most substantial inventions.

Upon logging on to my computer this morning I had received a BF Bowie website ticket purchase from Singapore China and it just got me to thinking how the INTERNET has changed our lives, brought people together and how we prospered so long without it.

 

[Joss]

I put the internet on par with the print, the telephone, and the telegraphe in terms of scope. It's amazing what it has done for the collectors' world, be they interested in knives, coins, etc.

 

[Marcel54]

In spite of its dangers the Internet is one the most important inventions men ever made.
As a collector I communicated with makers from all over the world and now for instance a talented maker as Rodrigo Sfreddo (of whom I would have never heard without the WWW) is making me a knife.
Not only for me as a "collector" the WWW is very important.....just think of the contacts I can have nowadays. I happen to have family and friends living all over the world (i.g. Canada and Australia) and it makes a huge difference communicating with them in comparison to lets say 10 to 15 years a go.

Marcel

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kind of makes you wonder though, that without the invention of even the crudest blade and point if man would have survived long enough to invent any of the marvels that have been mentioned here.

 

[A. G. Russell]

I put the internet on par with the print, the telephone, and the telegraphe in terms of scope. It's amazing what it has done for the collectors' world, be they interested in knives, coins, etc.

It is very important but it is also very vulnerable.

The printed word and telephone are major for us. We only have email address for about 10% of our customers. I guess that an awful lot of them are old crocks like me.