Customs Pricing – Opinions and Views?

[Keith Montgomery]

I only have a problem helping new "collectors" when they are actually "investors" looking to make a quick buck and move on. Have no problem with collectors being opportunistic, but I like to know that they are in it for the long haul first.

That I can understand, but it can be very difficult to know which type of collector you are dealing with. Some will make it obvious, but you will not know about the motives of others until you see them looking to make that quick buck. I hate to look at all new collectors with suspicion, and would rather end up helping someone looking for a quick profit than fail to help someone that ends up getting burned because of my skepticism.

 

[Kevin Jones]

You are my friend, Joss is my friend, and you are jumping on him for something that I don't agree with, or about.

I think that between the two of you, maybe the true picture emerges...that is all.

That is also why I played the time in rate card...not to rub your nose in it, but to remind you that this is a long haul proposition for many of us. A real close friend of mine has been collecting knives since the '60's, before I was born. He is real salty. He says ANYONE looking to make a profit out of their knives is a dealer-collector, instead of a pure collector, with a bit of sadness in his voice.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Fair enough.
And I respect and appreciate the years of dedication and hard work Mr. Russell and collectors such as yourself have put in and don't hide the fact that I'm a newbie. But then too, I have put an incredible amount of hours and a bit of money into my relatively short time collecting custom knives.

And STeven Mr. Russell did not say dealer-collector but anyone looking for a profit is a dealer. I just gave my opinion to that.

I know of one veteran collector that interacts on this forum at times that is very profit minded in his acquisitions, however has never sold a knife in his 30 years of collecting. And he has a great collection.

I sure didn't mean to disrespect Mr Russell in any way if that's what you are implying. I know the knife industry would be far behind what it is today without his effort.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I only have a problem helping new "collectors" when they are actually "investors" looking to make a quick buck and move on. Have no problem with collectors being opportunistic, but I like to know that they are in it for the long haul first.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Well we agree there STeven. And I'm in for the long haul.......

 

[Kevin Jones]

That I can understand, but it can be very difficult to know which type of collector you are dealing with. Some will make it obvious, but you will not know about the motives of others until you see them looking to make that quick buck. I hate to look at all new collectors with suspicion, and would rather end up helping someone looking for a quick profit than fail to help someone that ends up getting burned because of my skepticism.

Well said Keith.

 

[Kohai999]

I hate to look at all new collectors with suspicion, and would rather end up helping someone looking for a quick profit than fail to help someone that ends up getting burned because of my skepticism.

That would be where we differ, greatly....I try to balance my willingness to help with the fact that I might be assisting the next person to get all the good stuff out from under me..

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

STeven Pals again

 

[Kohai999]

.

I sure didn't mean to disrespect Mr Russell in any way if that's what you are implying. I know the knife industry would be far behind what it is today without his effort.

No, I was not talking about Andy(A.G.) at all . Referencing someone else, almost as respected, but not quite as well known.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kohai999]

STeven Pals again

Of course, my brother, from another mother!!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[A. G. Russell]

Hey AG,

Have to disagree with this:


Knife dealers are not custom knife dealers. Knife dealers are those who sell anything with an edge. Custom Knife Dealers sell only custom knives...thats it , no watches, no semi-production, no pens, etc...only custom knives.

WWG

Boy! That sure puts me in my place, just a watch salesman

 

[ilbruche]

I would think that new makers are likely to raise prices quickly as they become more popular and demand increases. The more your price goes up the fewer customers you will reach so the quality will have to improve as well. There is no real way to measure what a makers time and effort is worth in creating a blade. A custom knife is the embodiment of the makers skill and effort, and those that appreciate his work will gladly pay for it.

 

[Kohai999]

......A custom knife is the embodiment of the makers skill and effort,........and those that appreciate his work will gladly pay for it.

1. The first part is true.

2. The second part is an idealistic view that does not have much connection to the reality of things, there are many, many other factors to consider with regard to selling a knife.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Architect]

Okay, so let's chime in since this thread has fallen into generalizations.
Smart makers keep their price where it makes them money.
The secondary market is for players, good and bad decisions, all is fair. Anyone throwing more than a few hundred dollars on a pocketknife isn't doing it for "high performance".

"Collectors" vs. "Dealers" - geez, what a load of cr*p. You boys trying to place yourselves above the fray - get a life. If you want to be a "patron" - put your money in serious art - the price of admission starts at $1M and goes up. If you can't do that, too bad. No, I can't either, but I know way more about the serious art world than you do about the "serious" knife world, so one-upsmanship is game you won't win.

Les - one thing you have learned with your MBA is to be repetitive. Wow. You keep strumming the same tune. Why is it that you can't post under your real name on the two most important knife forums..........hmm.....maybe is it is a lack of judgement.

All PM's welcome if you don't want to address on this forum.

Anyone that buys and sells products that others make for a living is a salesman, whether they sell hairbrushes or "custom" knives. Purveyors sell to the Queen of England, period - anyone else is a liar until Prince Charles becomes a king. - AG, you keep selling knives, at least you know how to deliver decent photography.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

There are two meanings to the word purveyor, and one of them is simply:

A person who purveys, provides, or supplies.

 

[Architect]

Well Keith - while my intent was to deliver a different message, but since your brought it up - A purveyor was sanctioned for sales to the King of England. It has been since watered down to include food sellers or other basic provisions. Sellers of other stuff have since tried to co-opt the term to inflate the value of their service.

Fine - the same goes for "professionals"... that term now seems to apply to anyone with a job more demanding that frying potatoes at a fast food restaurant - and I for one did that, about 27 years ago, and no, I wasn't a professional.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Okay, so let's chime in since this thread has fallen into generalizations.
Smart makers keep their price where it makes them money.
The secondary market is for players, good and bad decisions, all is fair. Anyone throwing more than a few hundred dollars on a pocketknife isn't doing it for "high performance".

"Collectors" vs. "Dealers" - geez, what a load of cr*p. You boys trying to place yourselves above the fray - get a life. If you want to be a "patron" - put your money in serious art - the price of admission starts at $1M and goes up. If you can't do that, too bad. No, I can't either, but I know way more about the serious art world than you do about the "serious" knife world, so one-upsmanship is game you won't win.

Les - one thing you have learned with your MBA is to be repetitive. Wow. You keep strumming the same tune. Why is it that you can't post under your real name on the two most important knife forums..........hmm.....maybe is it is a lack of judgement.

All PM's welcome if you don't want to address on this forum.

Anyone that buys and sells products that others make for a living is a salesman, whether they sell hairbrushes or "custom" knives. Purveyors sell to the Queen of England, period - anyone else is a liar until Prince Charles becomes a king. - AG, you keep selling knives, at least you know how to deliver decent photography.

Well seeing you started your post with the mad symbol immediately infers that you are looking for conflict and the farther I read just confirmed that.

Might just be because its late, but I don't make much sense out of what points you are trying to make except "anyone throwing more than a few hundred dollars on a pocketknife isn't doing it for high performance."

I assume by the "serious art" reference, you just want to let us know you know what $1M "serious art" is. To me "serious art" is any art that is taken serious by the individual that appreciates it. At lease with a "serious custom knife" I can see the effort and skill that went into it's creation. IMO much of your "serious art" looks as if someone just threw paint on a canvas (actually some do) or a child did it. No matter how many intellectuals stand back from it and try to relate as to what the artist’s motivation was, or felt or whatever other artsy cr*p they use to justify the millions $.

Oh, and while you were at it, I guess you figured you would just take a stab at Les too. Why not?

But thanks anyway for the historical vocabulary lesson about purveyors and the queen of England.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

WWG , if you would , in this thread you wrote

Custom Knife Dealers sell only custom knives...thats it

WWG

( Sounded like a cheap shot at other dealers to me.)

yet in another thread you defined

Custom is a knife that has never been made before and a client asks for it to be made with speicific requirements.
WWG

so , with your definition , the only knives you carry that can be considered customs are the ones you asked to me made with specific requirements.

 

[custombuff]

I really appreciate all of the feedback from makers, collectors, and dealers alike. I am a relatively new collector and ask a lot of questions. Some are about what makers to look at, some are about strategies in collecting that won't leave you broke. I started collecting about five years ago and didn't know really what I was doing. I bought what appealed to me, only later researching the maker and only recently looking at how maker's work is reselling. This latter part never interested me, because I was not looking to make any money and when I bought them, didn't expect to sell (heck, at maker's lotteries, I still only put my name in for the ones that appeal to me). Well, tastes change and people who collect are constantly finding things that "have to have". Without expendable income, growing a collection can be difficult. This is where most people (I am finding) can rely on the savvy they displayed when purchasing the knife. That is, they can resell it without loosing money-and perhaps potentially make a profit.

Since I am currently stuck in the "pay for your lessons" period, selling knives at quite a loss, I find any insight that people give very helpful. To all of those that contributed to help people like me better understand...Thanks.
Nick

 

[Stephen F]

I think this is one of the most interesting threads I have read in some tme.

I think WWG could add small business consultancy to his services and make money out of it - but he doesn't, he gives out alot of info for free because he wants makers and the market to succeed - this contribution should not be overlooked.

Great open and honest dialogue between STeven and Kevin in the last couple of pages .... some of the comments and opinions expressed there give a real insight into the dilemmas and principal differences between the different types of collectors and "investors".

My contribution for what its worth is as follows:

PRICING AND BUYING: What have I learnt in the last few years?

1 - How do you make money on knives?

Patience: Get on the list of one of the top makers - you know the names. Someone new to the game or without the patience will pay you a hansome premium when the knife is ready.

Attend Shows: Get there early or pre-purchase!

Arbitrage: Have some inside info, contacts, or plain luck that allow you to buy below the market price.

Talent Spotting: Identify the next big thing, buy early and promote them.

Investment: Put your money in the great names and sit back and admire them for a some years.

Research: This is your time investment and is needed for any of the above. To know who and how much.

2 - How do you lose money on knives?

By making the wrong decision or choices in any of the above.

3 - Is "buying what you like" worth it?

Yes - if maintenance of value is not your primary goal or you can afford it and are happy to trust to luck. For some the pride of ownership is the primary factor. Type A collectors.

No - if you want to have more certainty in the value of your collection. Type B collectors.

Some collectors are "split personalities" and combine A and B philiosophies into a collection "portfolio" - This is quite common.

Note: This Type A vs Type B is the bone of contention between many collectors, and neither is right or wrong ..... providing we maintain a BALANCE: The reality is that for the market to survive you need BOTH behaviours in existence, someone to take the loses, someone to take the gains. Also, you can see in various threads that "new" collectors are expected to take some of the loses as part of their education process.


4 - Does understandable and logical custom knife pricing matter?

Hell Yes - maintenance of demand, growth in value, position in market - they are vital to all of the above. Makers need to listen and talk to the likes of Les Roberston, the collectors represented here and elsewhere, and the successful makers. Without good pricing strategies the level of randomness in the market will be too much of barrier for type B collectors, so much so that the supply will dry up or prices climb too steeply for the type A collectors ........as I have said they need each other.

.....now back to my hole!

Stephen

 

[Kevin Jones]

I really appreciate all of the feedback from makers, collectors, and dealers alike. I am a relatively new collector and ask a lot of questions. Some are about what makers to look at, some are about strategies in collecting that won't leave you broke. I started collecting about five years ago and didn't know really what I was doing. I bought what appealed to me, only later researching the maker and only recently looking at how maker's work is reselling. This latter part never interested me, because I was not looking to make any money and when I bought them, didn't expect to sell (heck, at maker's lotteries, I still only put my name in for the ones that appeal to me). Well, tastes change and people who collect are constantly finding things that "have to have". Without expendable income, growing a collection can be difficult. This is where most people (I am finding) can rely on the savvy they displayed when purchasing the knife. That is, they can resell it without loosing money-and perhaps potentially make a profit.

Since I am currently stuck in the "pay for your lessons" period, selling knives at quite a loss, I find any insight that people give very helpful. To all of those that contributed to help people like me better understand...Thanks.
Nick

Nick, I believe what you describing above is one of the most common dilemmas facing new collectors today.

The {"okay, I’ve been collecting for two years now and finally learned enough to know what type and style of knives I want to collect. However now all my money is tied up in all these knives that don't interest me anymore and I can't sell them for anything near what I paid"} dilemma.

The one word I stress to new collectors is "Patience".

In most cases, as soon as new collectors get "the bug" they immediately hit the dealer websites buying anything and everything on impulse at top prices rather than being patience in exposing themselves to all types of knives, talking to knowledgeable makers, dealers, collectors, going to shows and logging in time on the appropriate forums.

New collectors usually don't have the connections with the right makers to get knives direct from them, but choosing dealers such as Les Robertson and Bob Neil can offer security with their "trade-back or upgrade policy". Websites are one of the best training grounds out there. Where else can you not only be exposed to hundreds of customs knives but also see what makers and dealers think they are worth and then determine what they are actually worth by tracking how long they set on the site.

You hear the seasoned collectors refer to these knives as their "traders", "bottom third", "transition knives", but they are their mistakes in most cases. It took me about a year and a half to sell my mistakes, as I didn't just dump them at whatever, but created a plan to sell each to minimzie loss.

Yes, IMO the newbie needs to be a custom knife enthusiast first, and then graduate into a collector. However, easier said than done with all the beautiful knives available for purchase.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Great post Stephen. :thumbup:

That's the positive and constructive information we need to get to new collectors.

I may have gotten a little out of line last night regarding Joss's response to custombuff's request for information, however I can't stress enough how important the new collector is to the future of the custom's industry as nothing works without them.

Thanks STeven for attempting to reel me back in a bit, even thought I didn’t show much appreciation last night.