Cutting Performance, rant against sharpened prybars.

I should have said that it was my opinion that a blade should not be hardened to the point that a little lateral stress could easily break it. There may be others out there who need a super hard knife blade for the work they do and I am not putting them down for their choices, but I do think if more knives got used than got talked about,less makers would make their blades glass hard.
m
 
OK,

I see that I did not explain myself well enough.

My Bad.

No, I am not really going to show people a prybar, but it is humorous from my perspective. Then again, I may just.

I just the other day talked to two US Army Rangers, and they carried multiple knives. A machete, a kabar, an entrenching tool and a dagger.

I think that you can take the tools with you. I carry a Barteaux machete, Normark skinning axe, Spyderco Moran and three other knives every day, and I walk all over town, so I know you can do this in the woods or anywhere else.

I can see that sometimes you want one knife to do it all, well, I don't but that's just me.

I still maintain that an axe is the best chooping and wood cutting tool there is, foresters and lumberjacks took axes with them, not camp knives.

And what is a camp knife?

And a machete is the best for light vegataion and soft wood, as well it can be used as a draw knife and a chopper sometimes.

And a small belt knife is the best for general tasks.

I am not damning all thick knives, just ones where the prybar seems to be more important than the cutting.

Jeff Clark and bruce, thank you for taking some of this hot cyber off my shoulders.

PJ, yours is a one tool does it all and therfore it has built in compromises to my way of thinking, BUT, I think your tool is an acceptable set of compromises.

I am not trying to say that everyone should like what I like or that my opinion is the only right opinion, but it would be nice to hear more of you say that you see my point even if it is meaningless to you.

As to giving people only what they want, why? Why should I do that when I can do my best to help them find the best tool or tools for the job. I like to provide information and an informed opinion, so as to expand a person's choices, then they can make an informed decision.

I remember the Campanion, cool.

m-
but then you went on to come close to insulting people who like sharpened pry bars.
Click to expand...

How do you know exactly what I mean by sharpened prybars, so much that you can write what you did? And it would only be insulting to someone if they were somehow excessively identifying with their ""sharpened prybar"".

So anyway,

All- I respect your right and privelege to carry what you like, for whatever reason you like.

I am even thinking of purchasing a RTAK by Livesay. Can I play with you guys now.

And remember I warned you I was ranting.

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770/index.html

[This message has been edited by Marion David Poff (edited 30 July 1999).]
 
MDP:
By "sharpened prybar", would you be refering to the knives that use a thicker, heavier, piece of steel to make up for inferior design and/or steel choice? If that's the case I not only see your point but also agree with it!

------------------
P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
Marion :

I still maintain that an axe is the best chooping and wood cutting tool there is
Click to expand...

For certain kinds of wood cutting, at others its really lously. I don't see you needing the ability of an axe in a survival / camping situation as they are optimized for wood of a size that I think is hugely overkill.

To be specific I was doing some comparative chopping yesterday on pine, birch and some other soft woods. The CS Trailmaster could go though a 4" stick in about 15-20 chops (a fairly easy pace). Do you really need a lot more cutting power than this for shelter building? Houses are made of wood of this size I don't see why a shelter needs a larger wood. As for fuel for fire, that is much better served by dead-fall or small diameter wood of this size (higher surface to volume ratio dries out faster).

A decent knife that can chop well has a lot more function than an axe which also has the huge liability of being a two handed tool and one hand specific. Because the Trailmaster (or any decent knife) is one handed the other hand is free to control the wood, move branches etc., it makes a lot of work much easier and faster.

Sharpened pry bars? Why?
Click to expand...

Because you want to be able to pry and still cut. Every knife will trade off cutting performance for durability. Some knives do it more than others do. I can't see how you can draw a line at a certain point and thus regards the crossing of it as "poor knife design" or similar.

For example, I recently got a custom from Phil Wilson. I specifically asked him to make the knife with slicing performance and edge holding in mind and to not focus on durability. I ended up with a CPM-10V, 62.5 RC, 1/8" flat ground blade with a bevel at a .01" thick edge. This knife would slice better if it was 1/16, and if it had no edge bevel. It would also hold a thinner edge if it was harder, CPM-10V can easily get to 64 RC. However all of these things would make it more fragile. This was a sacrifice Phil, and I, did not think was sensible.

As for the arguement as to why not carry around the best tool. Its basically as simple as this. I can carry around a multi-purpose tool (like a heavier knife) that can cut as well as I need and can do heavy work such as prying, chopping, and digging. While I could carry around better tools for the specific tasks, the effort of carrying them is probably more than the benefit they give as I am not doing enough dedicated work in their specific field.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 30 July 1999).]
 
Generally, a thinner blade cuts better, but the issue is not as cut and dried as that. My best cutting knife is a David Boye custom hunter that is well over 3/16" thick at the spine where is joins the integral guard. I think what allows it to outcut any other knife I have ever used, no matter how thin the blade, is that it is only about an inch wide, has a full-width flat grind, and a very thin edge. The edge bevels are almost invisible.

This knife forces me to think that you can have strength and great cutting too.

Thinner blades do cut deep into hard materials better, and they cut around corners better too. I haven't given up my preference for thinner blades in general, but don't write those sharpened prybars off altogether. They have their place.

Harv
 
I think this forum is fun because it challenges underlying assumptions about what you need in a utility/survival knife. On the Spyderco forum people have recently been bemoaning the discontinuation of the full sized Calypso folder. It's a larger folder with a fully tapered VG-10 blade. It looks like it would serve all cutting functions better than thicker sabre-ground folders with false back edges. Spyderco is discontinuing it because the public expects this type of knife to be really thick like a folding dirk. Given the durability of the VG-10 alloy I think that the Calypso should be strong enough if you aren't trying to pry open doors. But somehow the customer view of knives seems to be that they should compromise cutting to support prybar functions.

So this thread is highlighting the trend and asking "Why?" At home I can always find something else to pry with. At work I can always find something else to pry with. In the field I can't remember ever needing to pry things (often chopping, but never prying). I recall images of mountain men with oversized butcher knives and hatchets or tomahawks. None of the mountain men I've heard of carried crowbars (though I wouldn't be surprised if they had a special purpose tool for opening traps). Where are we going with our knife designs? Are we getting thick in the head? (okay so I love puns
smile.gif
)

Anyway some of it is a matter of style I guess. Notice that Marion carries a machete, a Normark skinning axe, and a Moran. All those have thin blades, even the 'axe' is just a thin bladed hatchet. I usually don't carry my machete (not much jungle here in Colorado), but I do own one. When hunting I carry a Normark skinning axe or a Gerber BackPaxe, and a Fallkniven F1 or a Buck Vanguard. Thin minds think alike, I guess. I keep the prybar in the car.
 
Folders, now that's another ball of wax. Pry with a folder? Forget it. It is destructive. Even if the blade is strong enough to handle it, the pivot will get tweaked, the alignment of the handle sides will get tweaked, and the screws themselves will loosen. I don't personally see the need for a thick blade on a folder.

The Calypso was a great knife. If anything, I would have liked to see the handle get stronger rather than the blade, for cutting strength, not prying. I am sure Spyderco did some testing and had the handle and blade strength well matched though.
 
Steve Harvey:
There is one folder that can take the prying, the Uluchet, it's not a conventional knife and the handle lock system isn't like anything that you've seen before. The lock is real simple, very strong and no moving parts or springs.
Cliff Stamp did a review of it a while back, it's at www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/reviews.html

------------------
P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
Marion, the Trailmaster is a nice knife. Personally I would like a slightly heavier bowie as the fighting aspect is not of importance to me.

As for prying with folders, yeah, the Uluchet is not overly bothered by it or much of anything else actually. There are others as well. NamViet uses some of his folders in this manner, I think the MPF mainly and the Mad Dog / Scout hybrid he had made.

-Cliff
 
The Uluchet appears to be a fantastic cutting tool, but it is not a folding knife in my opinion. The edge is not enclosed by the handle at any time, and it lacks any sort of pivot. It does not double over itself, or bend, which are roughly the dictionary definitions of the verb fold.

I think it much more accurate to say that the Uluchet collapses.

That is a semantic issue only of course, and the Uluchet is undoubtedly a more durable tool than most folding knives.

Oh, and I use my Boye lockbacks to pry too...but not very hard.
smile.gif


Harv

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 02 August 1999).]
 
Steve:
The Oct. issue of Blade has some pics of the Uluchet, one of which shows the locking mechanism, it is two opposing rotation stops on the handle slabs. The handles pivot on the rotation pin, slotted screw head, 180 degrees in CW/CCW until the stop contacts the shank of the head. Anyway, it is not like a typical folding knife in concealing the blade, it is designed to be used in both the open and closed positions to make it more useful.

------------------
P.J.
YES,it is sharp, just keep your fingers out of the way!
www.silverstar.com/turnermfg


 
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