Cyclone slow... Blur fast... Why?

S

sockeye

Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
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Hi all! new here and I am Trying to study all the posts before asking a question so here goes: Is there a huge variation in the speed of the kershaw AO (speedsafe) knives between models? I visited a few places today and it seems the leek is faster than the scallion but about the same speed as the blur. The cyclone was equal to the scallion for speed. Both the cyclone and the scallion seem SLOW compared to the others. I thought it could be the mass of the different blades but the Blur and cyclone have close to the same size blades but the blur much faster. What gives?

I prefer the Cyclone because of the flipper. However I like the blur because of the speed. Can a different torsion bar be installed to make the cyclone as fast as the Blur?

Many thanks!
 
sockeye said:
Hi all! new here and I am Trying to study all the posts before asking a question so here goes: Is there a huge variation in the speed of the kershaw AO (speedsafe) knives between models? I visited a few places today and it seems the leek is faster than the scallion but about the same speed as the blur. The cyclone was equal to the scallion for speed. Both the cyclone and the scallion seem SLOW compared to the others. I thought it could be the mass of the different blades but the Blur and cyclone have close to the same size blades but the blur much faster. What gives?

I prefer the Cyclone because of the flipper. However I like the blur because of the speed. Can a different torsion bar be installed to make the cyclone as fast as the Blur?

Many thanks!
Click to expand...

Welcome, sockeye! :thumbup:

I don't have a full-size Cyclone, only a mini, but I do know that my Blurs are faster generally than all my other SpeedSafe Kershaws...Bumps, Shallot, Leeks, Scallions, Chives, Mini-Cyclone, Needs Work, Avalanche, etc.

What I don't know is whether or not this is by design...but they do call it the Blur...:D

Ray :)
 
alot of it is that the blur blade has less mass so to speak than the Cyclone. also, the cyclone needs more umph to open than the blur. it makes sense.

the blur is basically the perfect balance of speed safe and blade in terms of speed
 
offsetlover said:
alot of it is that the blur blade has less mass so to speak than the Cyclone. also, the cyclone needs more umph to open than the blur. it makes sense.

the blur is basically the perfect balance of speed safe and blade in terms of speed
Click to expand...

Thats what makes sense, but if that were the case then the scallion or the chive should be faster than any of the AO but in use they are much slower.The leek(larger blade) is faster than the chive(smaller blade). seems like the torsion bar could be a different spring rate to make it (the cyclone) just as fast as the blur, or would the knife fly out of Your hand?!:eek:
 
sockeye said:
Thats what makes sense, but if that were the case then the scallion or the chive should be faster than any of the AO but in use they are much slower.The leek(larger blade) is faster than the chive(smaller blade). seems like the torsion bar could be a different spring rate to make it (the cyclone) just as fast as the blur, or would the knife fly out of Your hand?!:eek:
Click to expand...

OK, here is the reason thats the case with the chive vs. leek. Larger blade. simple aint it?

you are prolly now wondering, well, wouldnt the Cyclone open faster? not nessecarily. you see with large knives, like the Cyclone and the Offset, there is alot of blade for the torsion bar to open. the large blade kinda "over powers" the torsion bar at first, the torsion bar catches up, but isnt powerful enough to over power that mass again. instead it just pushes. kinda like pushing a car down a hill. you cant really push it hard enough to get it to flip over while rolling, but you can help it gain speed. just play with the Offset. if you are not prepared, the knife WILL come out of your hand. the torsion bar + the size of the blade = alot of power behind that knife.

same holds true with the cyclone.

the blur though is different. like i said in a earlier post, it is a perfect combo of that blade mass and torsion bar when it comes to opening. the torsion bar does not have to "catch up" or over power the blade. the leek is like that too. perfect combo. makes sense with the chive, that its blade size just doenst have the mass to add to the opening to make it as fast as the blur.

so in short, and i hope this makes sense as i am typing this tired, the largest blades will open faster than the smallest blades thanks to inertia, but the mid size blades are right at that "sweet spot" of inertia.

if that didnt make sense, lemme know, and i will redo it when i get up, or someone else will fix it for me :D
 
also, lets not forget the thumbstud vs flipper debate. if you open the cyclone just like you would a blur, it is quite fast. thats because you are adding pressure in the blade's natural direction of opening and helping the torsion bar do its job, where as with a flipper you basically can only add enough pressure to activate the torsion bar.
 
offsetlover said:
OK, here is the reason thats the case with the chive vs. leek. Larger blade. simple aint it?

you are prolly now wondering, well, wouldnt the Cyclone open faster? not nessecarily. you see with large knives, like the Cyclone and the Offset, there is alot of blade for the torsion bar to open. the large blade kinda "over powers" the torsion bar at first, the torsion bar catches up, but isnt powerful enough to over power that mass again. instead it just pushes. kinda like pushing a car down a hill. you cant really push it hard enough to get it to flip over while rolling, but you can help it gain speed. just play with the Offset. if you are not prepared, the knife WILL come out of your hand. the torsion bar + the size of the blade = alot of power behind that knife.

same holds true with the cyclone.

the blur though is different. like i said in a earlier post, it is a perfect combo of that blade mass and torsion bar when it comes to opening. the torsion bar does not have to "catch up" or over power the blade. the leek is like that too. perfect combo. makes sense with the chive, that its blade size just doenst have the mass to add to the opening to make it as fast as the blur.

so in short, and i hope this makes sense as i am typing this tired, the largest blades will open faster than the smallest blades thanks to inertia, but the mid size blades are right at that "sweet spot" of inertia.

if that didnt make sense, lemme know, and i will redo it when i get up, or someone else will fix it for me :D
Click to expand...

Offsetlover, You are making perfect sense. It was a little late for me also so i was a little bleary eyed.:yawn:
I wonder If there is much variation between knives of the same model? I wonder if kershaw has different spring rates?
 
Here's what Thomas had to say on it....

Thomas W said:
houtex, first off, welcome to the forums, hope you hang out and really learn to enjoy the experience and knowledge available here at BF’s.

With AO's there are so many factors that come into play that determine how a specific knife opens.

The torsion bar is obviously one of those factors. We struggle in our decision making of how "fast" we want our Speed Safe to be.

We had a big debate yesterday on how “hot” the new Shallot should fire. Craig, being full of excess testosterone decided on hot, we agreed this time, so there you have it. Different torsion bars on the same knife can obviously make a big difference.

It is not always our intention to make a specific AO the fastest we can every time out, so you will see some variance from model to model. Not sure I feel faster is always better.

Thumbstuds vs. flippers, the knives internal cavity, geometry, size and weight, user enthusiasm, can all play a part on an AO's final quickness.

Hope that helps.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for that post sv...I had been contemplating ol's response, and knowing a little about math, physics and such, I couldn't come to an agreement with his inertia theory (no offense meant, ol!). In Newton's first law, he states that an object in motion tends to stay in motion, and an object at rest tends to stay at rest. In simple terms, it is the resistance to change that an object has to it's present state of motion. I couldn't put those rules together to justify the amount of mass (blade size, shape, weight, etc.) and the effects a torsion bar has on them. The amount of fire in an AO is directly proportional to the amount of energy stored in the torsion bar.

Knowing now that Kershaw fine tunes the firing of a SpeedSafe blade now makes a lot of things clearer!

EDIT: If I remember, somewhere in the past GG or KO mentioned that the Shallot's torsion bar was tweaked to give it stronger initial resistance to opening (and therefore closing), thereby creating a faster opening once the torsion bar took over.

Thanks! It all makes sense now! :D
 
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SPXTrader said:
Thanks for that post sv...I had been contemplating ol's response, and knowing a little about math, physics and such, I couldn't come to an agreement with his inertia theory (no offense meant, ol!). In Newton's first law, he states that an object in motion tends to stay in motion, and an object at rest tends to stay at rest. In simple terms, it is the resistance to change that an object has to it's present state of motion. I couldn't put those rules together to justify the amount of mass (blade size, shape, weight, etc.) and the effects a torsion bar has on them. The amount of fire in an AO is directly proportional to the amount of energy stored in the torsion bar.

Knowing now that Kershaw fine tunes the firing of a SpeedSafe blade now makes a lot of things clearer!

EDIT: If I remember, somewhere in the past GG or KO mentioned that the Shallot's torsion bar was tweaked to give it stronger initial resistance to opening (and therefore closing), thereby creating a faster opening once the torsion bar took over.

Thanks! It all makes sense now! :D
Click to expand...

no offense taken. I was tired when i typed it lol.

I actually read your post now. It looks like my tiredness actually sparked something in your mind! so in someway, i helped! i feel acomplished!
 
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svrider3 said:
Here's what Thomas had to say on it....
Click to expand...

So maybe Kershaw could supply a torsion bar with a higher rate or....
maybe the lawyers wouldn't allow it?

Seems like the cyclone could fire a wee bit faster, than the one I tried a few days ago, My chive while not fast seems to open at a reasonable speed for opening a letter , or a CD etc. but the larger knives should be faster,IMO.,

I do not expect a spring off a 1 ton truck but You know what i mean.;)
 
offsetlover said:
no offense taken. I was tired when i typed it lol.

I actually read your post now. It looks like my tiredness actually sparked something in your mind! so in someway, i helped! i feel acomplished!
Click to expand...

Yeah, thanks for that ol. That got some synapses firing that haven't seen any work in years! With all the brain cells I've killed over the years, it's amazing I can remember my name at times...:D
 
sockeye said:
So maybe Kershaw could supply a torsion bar with a higher rate or....
maybe the lawyers wouldn't allow it?
Click to expand...

I don't think lawyers play any role in how fast a certain Kershaw fires open
at. As Thomas stated, "It is not always our intention to make a specific
AO the fastest we can every time out, so you will see some variance from model to model.
Not sure I feel faster is always better."

Notice the bold part. I don't think it would be good for a 7-8 oz knife to
fire as fast as say a Leek. First it would take a larger diameter torsion bar
to achieve this which would make the knife pretty hard to start in the assist
aspect. As for Kershaw supplying higher rate torsion bars, can't see that
happening.
We need them making more knives, not extra large torsion bars. ;)
 
Anyone know what material the torsion bars are made from? If someone was really bored, they could make their own. Maybe supply a (really) small niche market here on the forum...

:confused: :)
 
riffraff said:
Anyone know what material the torsion bars are made from? If someone was really bored, they could make their own. Maybe supply a (really) small niche market here on the forum...

:confused: :)
Click to expand...

This sounds like a question for CRAIG GREEN! Someone send up the Mr. Roboto signal!
 
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