D2 sharpness question

Ernie1980

Ernie1980

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Apr 19, 2012
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I have a trapper with a d2 blade, and I cannot get it sharp. I have sharpened d2 many times, but this one is different. I can only get a working edge onto the blade, and have tried three times now to sharpen it. Are there some varieties of d2 with a more course grain structure?? The blade is from a good custom maker and is supposed to be a high grade German steel. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
 
There is technically a German d2 and an American d2, but d2 is d2, is all about how well of a heat treat its got and if its a well known maker then I am sure it the same if not very nearly the same as someones else's d2
 
I find waterstones or a Norton crystolon to do very well with D2. What your encountering is likely a very good heat treatment and that can make a knife seem much harder to sharpen. Your technique needs to be a little more exact and time spent setting the bevel is going to be important, when a steel has a better HT its much less forgiving to any grinding errors. The grain structure will not effect sharpening.
 
I have diamond hones, I am thinking about going for a set of water stones. I will try again tonight and be very careful and take my time. If the HT was bad then it would not get sharp at all correct?
 
knifenut1013 said:
I find waterstones or a Norton crystolon to do very well with D2. What your encountering is likely a very good heat treatment and that can make a knife seem much harder to sharpen. Your technique needs to be a little more exact and time spent setting the bevel is going to be important, when a steel has a better HT its much less forgiving to any grinding errors. The grain structure will not effect sharpening.
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Do you mean a Higher Rockwell hardness as a better HT? Like an RC 60 verses RC 55?
 
D2 just takes longer to hone than most other steels, in my experience, which includes a Dozier K1, BM 710 and Grippie (Cabela's). I start with a coarse (blue) DMT, then usually only the medium (red). The ultra-fine green DMT will produce a polished edge, but D2 seems to cut better with a slightly coarser edge. Dick Persons, a noted Yukon guide, told me he always used the coarsest hone he had on his D2 blades, so they would easily snick through caribou and moose leg joints. Just take your time, don't press too hard, and get a good burr on the coarsest hone you have before going to the finer grades. S30V/S35Vn and VG-10 are kissing cousins to D2; they all have a high volume of very hard carbides, and respond best to diamond hones.
 
Ernie1980 said:
I was told the hardness is right around 60
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Sharpening a knife is largely a matter of the edge geometry, while D2 is tougher to sharpen than say, 440C at the same RC hardness. Your diamond stones will do it, So will the bottom of an old ceramic coffee mug.
Like Alberta Ed just stated, take your time and make sure you have a good burr along the edge before flipping to the other side. Then strop on some cardboard to get rid of the burr.
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Do you mean a Higher Rockwell hardness as a better HT? Like an RC 60 verses RC 55?
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In some respects, yes but more about the steel getting more individual attention. The heat treat on a custom knife has always been (in my experience) much better but I don't know enough about heat treatment to tell you exactly what that is. The best way I can describe it the steel feels denser and its something I've seen in steels on both ends of the hardness scale.
 
Ok I tried again, and got the knife reasonably sharp. It cuts magazine paper, but not completely smoothly. I worked up a nice burr, then removed it with a leather 3 micron loaded strop. I think I might have been creating a wire edge before that broke off and left the blade dull. At least that's my best guess....... It still is not as sharp as my dozier hunter but it's going to have to do.
Thanks for the advice!
 
You need to work most of the burr off on the stone. Trying to strop it off typically does not work too well and will round the edge.


By using light pressure on the stone you can get a sharp and burr free edge, try working on that first.
 
Ok.....one more time! I finished with a 1000 grit stone, and stropped it just a couple of times to remove any micro burrs. It is finally sharp!!!! I went through years of wear in a few days, but I will chalk it off to a learning experience. Thanks for all of the advice:thumbup:
 
knifenut1013 said:
In some respects, yes but more about the steel getting more individual attention. The heat treat on a custom knife has always been (in my experience) much better but I don't know enough about heat treatment to tell you exactly what that is. The best way I can describe it the steel feels denser and its something I've seen in steels on both ends of the hardness scale.
Click to expand...

I think that is where the discussion moves away from hardness to grain structure. Better heat treat and the same steel at the same RC can have a finer grain structure. I've been doing some reading on the subject recently but its an in depth subject and I feel like I have barely scratched the surface...

I will say this , on some of the more abrasion resistant steel grain structure is the difference between the average user being able to sharpen a knife or not , without going to diamonds.

Lets say that we have a steel that has a poor heat treat , and the carbides are approx. 5 microns in size.(pulling numbers out of my rear but bear with me) This means that the average user can only go to a 5 micron finish before carbide fallout starts to limit his ability to advance the edge. (assuming he is not using diamonds). Now we have the same steel with the same final RC but a great heat treat. The carbides in this steel are approx. 1 micron in size. This means that the average user can go to a finish that is 5 times finer than with the poorly heat treated steel before carbide fallout starts to impair his ability to sharpen. Now this is almost completely negated by the use of diamonds sharpening wise. The quality heat treat will still have better durability AND abrasion resistance but.....

This is one of the characteristics that makes CPM D2 such a different animal than Plain Ole D2...

Anyways this is such an in depth subject and I cannot claim to be an expert...
 
I think another thing worth considering here is that there isnt necessarily one good heat treat and everyrhing else falls to certain, gradual steps from "an ideal heat treat" by maker "x", but rather multi layers of types of h.t. dependant on trying to reach different attributes of the steel. It sounds confusing but hear me out.

Maker "x" may be trying to maximize edge retention, so his goal of h.t. may be to achieve the maximum level of Rc and wear resistance. Maker "y" may use a different heat on the same steel because he is looking for a good blend of edge retention and toughness out of the same steel. Production company "z" may use a diffent h.t. again to maximize sharpenabilityand add even more toughness because they are trying to maket a certain knife to the masses and they figure average joe is much more concerned about breaking off the tip of the knife opening paint cans than maximizing the performace of a knife with superb edge retention. In knives,just as in automobiles, companies would rather opt for versatility over performance. Now this doesnt necessarily mean one is good.or bad/wrong or right. Just different. Therein lies the advantage to custom over production: YOU choose how you want it EXACTLY rather than making compromises.
 
knifenut1013 said:
In some respects, yes but more about the steel getting more individual attention. The heat treat on a custom knife has always been (in my experience) much better but I don't know enough about heat treatment to tell you exactly what that is. The best way I can describe it the steel feels denser and its something I've seen in steels on both ends of the hardness scale.
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I use almost all modern stainless steels like, 440C, CPM-154, CPMD2, CPM-S35VN, I have my knives HTed by Paul Bos at Buck knives. They use a Cyro treatment which I feel greatly helps refine the grain structure and do the HT work for many of the top custom makers in the country. I don't think anyone could pay more attention than these people do? Perhaps if you are HTing carbon steel with a differential HTing?

Their work with stainless & tool steels is so top notch that I just don't feel I could do better than their work and would be lucky to match it after years of trial & error and large expense of equipment. I spend my time designing and grinding, Handle shaping, etc.
 
Ernie1980 said:
Ok.....one more time! I finished with a 1000 grit stone, and stropped it just a couple of times to remove any micro burrs. It is finally sharp!!!! I went through years of wear in a few days, but I will chalk it off to a learning experience. Thanks for all of the advice:thumbup:
Click to expand...

Glad we could help.
 
I'll just ask a question in this thread instead of starting a new one if I may?...

The maker that made the blank in D2 that I finished recently mentioned that he's noticed that, in terms of polishing his knives that he completes himself, that the polished surface can have either a normal mirror polish, or sometimes an orange peel look. After polishing the bottom portion of the blade (convex bevel), I noticed that mine does appear to have a slight orange peel look.

Perhaps this would better be asked in the makers forum, but does this mean that the grain structure is larger than the grain on a blade that'll mirror?

The apex *appears* to be very keen. As keen as my m4, but I'm curious. I'm also (carefully) using a belt grinder to do the work because, even with diamond plates, it's a huge pain. I'm not lazy, but I've had to bring the apex to .01" by lapping the entire sides of the blade (full flat grind), not just a regular sharpening/reprofile.
 
The orange peel it typically a indicator that at some point all the scratches were not removed before polishing.
 
i noticed that too on a couple customs.

cant the orange peel look be the steel structure starting to pop out as you polish it ? i love playing with acids on my carbon, tool qnd semi stainless steels, ive noticed that the same steel from various maker can show a texture or not depending on the heat treat, i have several blades in 145sc ( think 1095 on steroids, 1.45C) one shows a very nice wootz like texture,one has a straighter texture and one nothing at all.

same goes for d2.
this is a custom in d2 etched with ferric chloride
image.jpg


an earlier blade by the same maker, still d2
p1120941.jpg

note the differences in the texture
 
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