Daggers in New York

C

charlesbjr

Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
448
OK, I have read the New York penal code only about 100 times and want to know if any other New Yorkers interpret the noted code the same way I do.

I am looking to purchase a dagger (i.e. SOG Daggert) for hunting, NOT for an EDC. The NY penal code states that daggers are considered a deadly weapon as well as switch blades and gravity knives. However, the penal code also goes on to say that switch blades and gravity knives are exempt if you are hunting, fishing, etc. but does not explicitly mention daggers.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

:confused:
 
A dagger is always a deadly weapon in NY Law. The Switchblade and Gravity knife exemptions where put in the law so as to allow persons possessing those knives at the time the ban was pasted to still kept them for a specfic use. A dagger can be sold in NYS but possession is banned. That makes alot of sense.....There is no Definition of a dagger in the NYS PL and most upstate LEOs are more concerned that you have a permit for your pistols. You will be in violation of the letter of the law, and although it would be hard to believe there would be any problem, you never can tell. I went hunting upstate NY back in my LEO days, and two State Troopers checked us while hunting, and checked the pistols where listed on the permits of the two retired LEOs that were with us......so you never know . I would be on the safe side and get a single edge blade....
 
How would New York deal with someone who uses a dagger for re-enactment or living history purposes? I am thinking here of something like a Roman pugio or a Medieval dagger.
 
Here in Texas reenactment 'weapons' are legal TO and FROM an event as long as they are kept in a locked trunk.
Same with martial arts weapons are legal to transport to and from lessons or competitions.
Same with hunting and fishing. Texas law says something like knives "commonly used" in said activity. I don't think a switchblade would be acceptable here.
 
Recently in upstate NY, a blackpowder hunter was arrested and charged with possessing a "dagger" . . . it was a primitive obsidan (knapped volcanic glass) blade.
 
Good info., thanks guys.

I also read somewhere (??) that a knife with a blade over four inches (i.e. a Rambo style knife) in up-state NY is an issue. I thought the NYC penal code allowed the transportation of a large knife to and from hunting, camping, etc. Does this mean I have to worry about taking my RAT 7 hunting? Also, is there an issue with storing large knives (single edge only) in my house?
 
New York knife laws seem to be somewhat of a mystery.I live way up north in N.Y. and as a maker,I always have knives in my vehical.A family member is a town officer so I questioned him about it and his reply was "There are no laws about that" [several knives,large and small,on the seat next to me].I'de kinda like to know what laws I may be breaking!!
 
Pretty strange, escpecially when some large Bucks are sold up-state in the Walmarts.

I hunt with a few retired NYC LEOs in the Adirondacks and they can't seem to figure out why I would even worry about what knife I am taking up with me. They think I am just paranoid.
 
In NYC any officer who has been off the force for more than five years would tell you not to worry, but the sad truth is the "new breed" of NYC officers,who have grown up not carrying a knife ( metal detectors in schools) and is trained that all "weapons" arrest are good, have a different idea of the law. When I was a LEO, you would be laughed out of the station house if you brought in a guy for a knife possession arrest. Today, they encourage enforcement of the NYC Admin Code ( under 4" blade and must be concealed) and a knife only charge is not uncommon these days. There are far fewer stores that sell knives in NYC. There is no state law limiting blade size only the city law. A fixed blade that has a long blade maybe deemed as a "dangerous knife" but there is only one case law ruling that backs this up.
 
charlesbjr said:
Good info., thanks guys.

I also read somewhere (??) that a knife with a blade over four inches (i.e. a Rambo style knife) in up-state NY is an issue. I thought the NYC penal code allowed the transportation of a large knife to and from hunting, camping, etc. Does this mean I have to worry about taking my RAT 7 hunting? Also, is there an issue with storing large knives (single edge only) in my house?
Click to expand...

You can take a large single-edged blade hunting or camping. When transporting it in your vehicle, be sure to stow it in the trunk (preferably within a locked container).

If you are driving 8 mph over the speed limit, are "weaving within your lane," or are driving after midnight, you may be pulled over. If you are pulled over, you may be asked to give permission for a search of your vehicle -- including the trunk. If you refuse, expect to be detained. Upstate NY cops have FAR too much time on their hands.
 
OK, safe to say then it is ok to own a knife (single edge) in NYC, with a large blade (i.e. RAT 7, Gryphon, Buck, etc.) stored in your home. Provided that the knife is properly stored in your vehicle when transported to and from a hunting, camping, etc. trip.

Thanks guys!
 
not ny, but odd thing in the ca law. it is generally accepted that a dagger is a double edged knife, and retailers dont sell them. but the penal code does not mention the double edge, dagger is used as a generic term for a knife or stabbing weapon, as is the term dirk.
 
i guess the point being, check the portion of the code that defines 'dagger'. its in there somewhere.
 
You can also carry a Switchblade or gravity knife, provided you're doing so while Hunting, Fishing, or Trapping with the appropriate permit. There's no length limit spelled out in the law for NY state, whether it be a folding or fixed blade. But I don't know at what length they would consider it "dangerous" per the law. NYC has a 4" limit
 
If you want to CYA, contact the DA's office via E-mail or snail mail, and get an official reply from them. If you ask a cop(s), you may get a different answer every time, as opinions of the law will vary. If the DA's office says it is OK to hunt with your Dagger, print off a copy and stow it in your gear in case a LEO with a different perspective stops you down the road. At least if you do end up being charged after the DA said it was legal, the DA (and or Judge if the case goes foward) will throw it out before it goes to court, as you contacted them previously in an "act of good faith" as you attempted to comply w/the law.
 
I thought a dagger was OK in New York. In the penal code, it says any knife can be considered a deadly weapon. However, it doesn't say it's illegal to have unless you have it with the intent to harm another person.

As it says here http://www.thehighroad.org/library/blades/knifelaws.html , it lists "yes" in NY under the dagger column (meaning it's ok). It also gives a link to http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ny.txt where it says:
"A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when ... (2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another;" meaning it's only unlawful if you have a dagger and have the intent to use it to hurt someone.
 
Toad224, continue reading the Levine NY section to the following......

4... The possession by any person of any dagger, dirk,
stiletto, dangerous knife or any other weapon, instrument,
appliance or substance designed, made or adapted for use
primarily as a weapon, is presumptive evidence of intent
to use the same unlawfully against another.

Possession = intent......

silly but true. If the officer knows the whole law then you maybe in trouble....
 
tom19176 said:
Toad224, continue reading the Levine NY section to the following......

4... The possession by any person of any dagger, dirk,
stiletto, dangerous knife or any other weapon, instrument,
appliance or substance designed, made or adapted for use
primarily as a weapon, is presumptive evidence of intent
to use the same unlawfully against another.

Possession = intent......

silly but true. If the officer knows the whole law then you maybe in trouble....
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that section is supposed to emphasize on the part "made or adapted for use primarily as a weapon." Almost anything can fall into the category "dangerous knife or any other weapon, instrument, appliance or substance." Even a pen could fall under that category, however it wouldn't be illegal since it wasn't made or adapted for use primarily as a weapon.

Going back to the earlier section where it said "A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when ... (2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another;" - There would be no point in having the part "with intent to use the same unlawfully against another" if simply posessing it is automatically equal to intent. That would make posessing any knife unlawful if posession was the same as intent.

I think they purposely categorize weapons into two parts in 265.01: 1: the ones that are illegal with just posession and 2: the ones that are illegal only if you posess them and have intention to use them unlawfully. The weapons mentioned in part 1 would be "firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife..." and the ones in part 2 are "dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol."
 
Actually, I was a former NYC LEO and it list those items because there were arrest made an the idea of intent was an issue, so this section was added to the Pl. The law reads clearly ( I don't agree with it) and it list dagger, dirk and stiletto just as clearly as the above section. I think you would lose the agruement with a DA. The other language was added due to the fact that many criminals used modified kitchen knives and screw drivers as a stabbing weapon, and also to bring charges in the Penal law for inmates who create a weapon to stab someone while in jail. Those are the facts......This would allow possession in a residence since it says by any person, which has been interperted to mean on a person and not within a location.
 
I do think the law (NYC Law) is a bit confusing. On one hand, it appears to state that you can carry a knife with a blade of 4" or more if you are going hunting, camping, etc. But on the other hand, it states that you can be prosecuted for posession of a "dangerous knife."

When looking at the NYC PL, I also noticed the following (sorry, it is a bit lengthy):

10-133 Possession of knives or instruments.

A. Legislative findings. It is hereby declared and found that possession in public places, streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition encourages and fosters the commission of crimes and contributes to juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and threatening to the public and should be prohibited.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street or park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually using suck knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of this section.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to (1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor; (2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner (4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or (5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or (b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or (c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.

Some retired LEOs I know tell me that I am reading into this too much and if I am in posession of one of my larger knives while hunting, camping, etc. - I won't get a second look.

Who knows........:

Either way, I changed my EDC to a Opinel with a blade lenght of under 4"

confused:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top