Damage to the Sebenza warranty

L.O. Little

L.O. Little

Joined
Dec 28, 2000
Messages
760
Check out Anne's post at:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/000044.html

Check out Lenny's post at:

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/000803.html

Check out the Sebenza warranty:

"Chris Reeve – Cutler
Guarantee

This knife is guaranteed for life. It is designed for a specific purpose. Should this knife fail after purchase by original user, due to faulty workmanship or materials, such defects will be made good free of cost. The right is reserved to make good such defects either by repair or replacement.

This guarantee does not cover natural materials, incorrect applications, neglect or abuse. Any modifications that are made to the knife after it has left our workshop will void this guarantee.

This knife will be your most trustworthy companion, helper, defender. Look after it and it will look after you."

Lenny has owned his Sebenza for 3 years. If he cleaned it twice in that 3 years, he would have "flicked" it twice, per Anne's directions.

I quote myself, "Charging Lenny for the repair has caused more damage to the Sebenza warranty than the entire knife was ever worth. If I'd seen Lenny's post a month ago, I probably wouldn't have bought my Sebenza. I am very disappointed."

Consider the person contemplating his/her first Sebenza purchase. Consider his/her finding all the posts on this subject. Consider his/her finding the ONE reply from CRK on this subject.

If I were that person, I'd look elsewhere for my next knife purchase.

Again, I quote myself, "Charging Lenny for the repair has caused more damage to the Sebenza warranty than the entire knife was ever worth."
 
Hi all, I would point out that there is no one at Reeves till approximately the 17th or so of january....they are all gone on a preplanned national knife event, the shotshow? I think. Before you get really concerned give this the time it needs. Anyone I have met who has ever talked to/dealt with the Reeves Company has been happy to do so... I would point out that this is the first I can recall of a situation such as this and there are an aweful lot of sebenza users that are happy out there... I really do not see the need for multiple threads on the subject especially when it was stated that they could not respond if they wanted too...
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God Bless-paul



[This message has been edited by tallpaul (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
The other thing you have to consider is the concept of "Trial By Internet". Some people may feel the forums or the internet is an inappropriate place for matters such as this.

Also there's no way of knowing "the truth" or "the cause" in this situation. I would say that everyone here tries to do the best they can, but even then, sometimes, people are left unsatisfied.

The nature of the imperfect world means that sooner or later situations such as this come up. The other problem is knowing when a situation is something you should take up sides and be an active participant in, and when it's just a point of information.

I'm not perfect, but these are things I try to remember and practice, not always successfully BTW.

DaveH
 
Paul, they are at the SHOT show in New Orleans. They'll be back on the 16th.

Mr. Little, you seem to be determined to keep this subject alive regardless of the fact that it doesn't involve you.

Chris Reeves' warranty still means what it did before this got started. It has only been damaged to the extent that you and some others have chosen to to use this incident to try and trash the company.

This is getting old.

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Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
 
Im guess I don't understand what guaranteed for life means?
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Rick Gray - Left Handers Unite
 
Mr. Wright, you wrote:

"Mr. Little, you seem to be determined to keep this subject alive regardless of the fact that it doesn't involve you."

I rec'd my Sebenza 9 days ago. It came with a warranty. The warranty is as important to me as the knife is. Therefore, this matter does involve me. Lenny's posts concerning how his Sebenza warranty was handled bother me.

From what Lenny wrote in his posts, he did not abuse his knife. In fact, it sounds like it had a problem soon after he rec'd it. Lenny wrote:

"I followed the Mad Dog warranty claim travesty. If I remember correctly, someone wanted a free knife cuz he broke the tip off of his ATAK while digging with it in rocky soil. Give me a break!
My request for compensation is much more benign. I honestly believe there were some tolerance or material problems in the locking bar. The knife did lock up vault solid when it was new. However, the lock bar moved over to the other handle side soon thereafter, which I thought strange. It still locked solidly though. Only recently did the blade exhibit play when locked up. Again, I only flicked it open twice since I bought it new. If you know the knife, you'll know that flicking it open isn't that easy, specially if you're as uncoordinated as me.
The way I feel now, I just want my Sebenza back. I miss it. I also miss the extra $100 that it took to make it right.
Lenny"

Please notice this part:

"The knife did lock up vault solid when it was new. However, the lock bar moved over to the other handle side soon thereafter, which I thought strange."

I quote myself:

"In my business, I routinely make decisions on warranty coverage/customer liability on machine installations costing up to $100k."

We're only talking about a $325 knife. I'd imagine that Chris Reeve Knives has a minimum 40% markup on their products. BTW, that's in no way a cut to Chris Reeve. That's just business.

I would have offered Lenny a brand new knife. That's just good business. It's also good, cheap advertising.
 
RGRAY, I feel the same way. When I bought my Sebenza, it was for 2 reasons; I'd get a knife without any problems, and it would last me a "lifetime."

Sure, what Chris decided was inline with the letter of their written warranty. But the warraties are always written like that - that's why you have all those laywers. But the problem isn't if it's to the letter of the warranty, but that it seems to be against the spirit of the warranty. I'd say that the spirit of the warranty is that it's guaranteed for life. That's how they market it. And that's how it's perceived.

At this point, I too am thinking that maybe I should buy a LCC DA to get the strongest knife. It's, after all, even designed to take the "flicking" of the spring (DA might be stronger than the manual. And DA can be used/converted to plain manual too). Or that maybe I'll have to start being very carefull when opening my Sebenza. But we haven't really heard from Chris yet...

... and I'd like to hear something from them when they get back. After all, in the other post Lenny said that he kept the Sebenza in a rear pocket and sat on it. If this bends the knife, it will bend the knife to the direction where the lock side would be "stretched." If this bend is permanent (i.e. doesn't return completely when taken out of the pocket) then it's easy to see that the lock finger might not be quite long enough the provide secure lockup.

Apparently Chris has studied the knife. I'd like to hear if this is indeed what has happened, as I suspect. If so, it's quite logical and much better reason/explanation to the problem than leaving us thinking that Sebenzas last only 3 years. And maybe the laywer's should add to the warranty that sitting on the knife is considered abuse
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Hugo. (My Sebenza is still going on very strong
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)
 
Anybody seen Lenny's post, lately? He received his knife back, he's real happy with it. He now realizes that his knife didn't just need a "part", but needed to be totally rebuilt so that everything worked together right. He regrets starting this post. Says that he's a loyal Reeve customer and would buy another one.

As for me, my first "better than custom" knife was a Sebenza I bought 3 or 4 years ago. I call them "better than custom" because in their price category or anywhere close, that's what they are. I sold it to get into "even better" knives. Custom knives. Well, with the goal of having the best working knife available in my pocket, I've pretty much tried them all, price being almost no object. Couldn't quite spring for a $3000 Schmidt or a $4000 Ron Lake, though. However, being willing to spend much more than a Sebenza costs, I still couldn't find a better combination of toughness, design, function, cutting ability, workmanship and trust in the makers to stand behind their product.

Oh, I didn't mention the word "guarantee", did I? The manner in which the principal people at a company conduct themselves means more to me than an unequivocable guarantee. I'm not shaken the least bit by the decision regarding Lenny's knife. I know CRK goes above and beyond in the area of customer service and had good basis for the decision. They're running a business, I respect that and it gives me confidence that they'll be around should my "better than customs" ever need service over the next 30 or 40 years.

Peter Bransky
 
Lets hold fire until Anne and Chris can answer back ok? This is getting a bit pointless right now. Please wait for a response!

I am sure this will be sorted out.

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
 
I don't see a reason why do we have to spill this all over the forum
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one thread was enough IMHO?

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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
 
There is already a big fat thread on this topic, what were you hoping to achieve with this one?

And, if you thought it was important enough for a new thread, and being that you actually own a Sebenza so you are a CRK customer, why wouldn't you first voice your concern to the business owners directly (via phone, email, letter) and see if you get satisfaction from that?

A "Lifetime Warranty" covers materials and workmanship, period "."

Who exactly is Lenny (no offense man!) that so many people are willing to throw the Good Reputation of a Respected Knifemaker out the friggin' window over? Maybe Lenny in some way created the problem without knowing it. Or maybe Lenny let someone use his knife and they tweaked it. But no, jump to the conclusion that Chris Reeve is a nogoodnick...that's crazy.

I recommend anyone who has a specific concern with Mr. Reeve's warranty contact him directly, and let him speak for himself (or any CRK representative for that matter!)

Brandon
 
Hello, Please wait until the proprietors are back in town. Right now is like taking shots at them with both hands tied. Please wait for the response. They always treat their customers with kind regard and much respect. Happy customers are customers forever. It's called repeat business... and they have alot of it... Cya JC
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Jonathan Chubb
 
All of the words that have been spilled over this subject in the last week or so have been interesting, to say the least.

One group seems to be eager to condemn The company based on the mere concept or possibility that CRK might not mean what they say when promoting their products. They are demanding explanations.

The other group is adamantly defending CRK, no matter what.

All of this is based on one incident with one knife of unknown condition after three years of unknown use under unknown circumstances.

What an intense band of forumites we are.

The guarantee I read, that comes with all of the CRK products that I sell is pretty straightforward and plain. It says that they are guaranteed for life against defects in workmanship and materials. Period.

Rick, you say that you don't understand what guaranteed for life means. It means what it says. You may be simply confusing a limited lifetime warranty with an unconditional lifetime warranty. All you have to do is read the whole thing. Just don't read anymore than what it says into it.

Nowhere does it say that CRK products are unconditionally guaranteed against any and all failures, no matter what the reason. That is a foolish and reckless policy that very few manufacturers would offer, especially those who wish to remain in business.

I know that there are a few companys who do offer that kind of warranty but they are rare. Blackjack Knives used to have that kind of guarantee. (They are no longer in business.) So does Dillon Precision (At least, they used to.)

I believe that the only production knifemaker that offers that kind of guarantee, these days, is Busse Combat. There could be more but I can't think of any at the moment.

Chris has put conditions on the warranty and has carefully and thoroughly specified those conditions. As long as those conditions are met, he will honor it.

Mr. Little, a $345.00 pocket knife is not a $100K piece of industrial machinery. To compare the two is not reasonable, nor would it be feasable to construct a similar warranty/customer liability program for two types of product that differ so widely. As far as the markup is concerned, that is irrelevant.

To you, it may seem like good "customer relations" to ignore signs of abuse or improper use and provide repair service free of charge, for life, on a product with the potential for such use but it is really bad business. There are just too many variables.

A piece of industrial machinery, which will be operated under specific conditions and in a specific environment can be engineered to withstand those conditions and environment. Strict instructions and procedures can be promulgated and required for proper operation. With all those parameters, it can be a simple matter to guarantee that machine to operate for a specified amount of time when all of those parameters are met.

You can also be sure that a certain amount of that $100K you spent for that machine is there to cover the cost of servicing that warranty if the thing does break ahead of schedule.

A piece of furniture (like a bookcase) can be constructed to withstand a specified load simply by knowing the range of sizes and weights of the largest and heaviest objects that are going to placed on that furniture.
It's a simple matter.

It is impossible to establish the working environment or conditions, under which a pocket knife will be used so an unconditional lifetime warranty is just not practical. Too many incidences of "good customer relations" and the company is history. (see the above comment about Blackjack Knives. Their "unconditional lifetime warranty" isn't much good now.)

As to the cost, it isn't out of line for a precision instrument of this quality. I submit that, if one were paying for an unconditional lifetime warranty, it would be significantly higher.

It is obvious that the damage to the knife in question indicated that the conditions of the warranty had not been met. There was no problem with either the quality of workmanship or materials. If there had been, the repair would have been completed at no cost.

To say otherwise is to imply that Chris Reeve is less than honest. All who know Chris Reeve know that is just not the case.

If he has chosen not to describe the damage or explain further then he has good reason, whatever that may be.

That's not the "party line". That's the reality and the truth.

------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
 
Let me list what I feel are good business practices:

1. For a manufacturer, the warranty is there to protect him from abusive customers. It also protects his non-abusive customers from price increases due to abusive customers. The "fine print" in a warranty is for dealing
with abusive customers, not non-abusive customers.

2. Always treat your smallest customer exactly as you would your largest customer. It doesn't matter if he's bought a $10 dollar item or a $100,000 item.

3. Under promise & over deliver.

Again, I quote myself, "Charging Lenny for the repair has caused more damage to the Sebenza warranty than the entire knife was ever worth."

I only own one (large, plain, with double thumb lugs) Sebenza. Before Lenny's post, I was considering buying a small Sebenza. Now, I'm thinking of selling my Sebenza.
 
I'm really glad Lenny got his knife back and is happy with all that transpired. I'm not trying to trash CRK either. I've never spoken or corresponded with Chris, but I have with Anne, and I like both her personableness and professionalism. I own 2 Sebs., and I am quite happy with both (though one is at this moment back at CRK for a blade refinish which, I'm aware, has nothing to do with any warrenty).

This being said, I'm still interested in this discussion for philosophical reasons. I think that if nothing else, what should emerge from this is a change in the wording of CRKs warrenty because it is quite unclear what is meant by "defects in workmanship or materials" in a "for life" context. It is understandable to me that Lenny, and anyone else who buys a CRK knife would be confused.

to quote Dennis W...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
The guarantee I read, that comes with all of the CRK products that I sell is pretty straightforward and plain. It says that they are guaranteed for life against defects in workmanship and materials. Period.
</font>
Click to expand...

When must a defect show up to be applicable? What does "for life" mean in this context? If I get a knife with a broken blade, bent pin, or other defect that is OBVIOUS the moment I take the knife from the box that would be easy. But can't a "defect" show up after use? Couldn't the tang on Lenny's blade have been slightly over-ground such that it worked fine at first, but loosened up over quickly, 3 years instead of 20 (just to pull numbers from the air)? Wouldn't this be a defect in workmanship? Might the stop pin have been stressed such that it seemed to be OK at first, but deformed after only 3 years of use? Wouldn't this be a defect in materials?

Dennis again...
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
It is obvious that the damage to the knife in question indicated that the conditions of the warranty had not been met. There was no problem with either the quality of workmanship or materials. If there had been, the repair would have been completed at no cost.
</font>
Click to expand...

So if Chris isn't a liar, then Lenny must be? I don't buy that. I assume that both are telling the truth. Lenny did not abuse the knife, and Chris, in examining the damage, honestly thought it had been abused. But this still brings us back to the first question, could not the same damage been the result of a subtle "defect" in either workmanship or materials that did not show up for some time?

My philosophical problem here is the "for life" part of the CRK warrenty, limited or not. What sort of damage would CRK expect to see that was "materials or workmanship" based after 3 years, or for that matter any time beyond the knife's first day in a user's hands? Given what has been said above, the only thing I can think of that would still apply would be a knife bought by someone, and then left in its box or never used for years such that when the knife is first used, some defect is revealed that would have been discovered if the knife had only been used the first day it arrived. Is that what "lifetime" means here? Doesn't it seem reasonable that anyone reading the CRK warrenty would assume that a well-used knife would also be replaced if some defect showed up 1 year, 5 years, or even 20 years later? What I'd like to know from CRK is what sort of defect that might be. That is, what kind of defect (if any) could there be that they would cover after some years of use? If the answer is "none", then the warrenty should be changed to note specifically that if the knife appears OK out of the box (properly sharpened, locks tight, smooth operation, etc.), but wears over a couple of years of use to the point where it is no longer tight, smooth, etc, then repairs to that knife would not be covered under the warrenty.

I would have no problem with that, and I'd feel better if the warrenty was much more specific in this regard.

 
Dennis . . . I agree wholeheartedly with you. Anyone who can read with comprehension would be able to understand the CRK warranty. To L. O. Little, I say, SELL YOUR LONE SEBENZA AND LEAVE US THE HE!! ALONE!
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ralph
 
This entire discussion is philosophical, since the original problem has been resolved to Lenny's satisfaction.

There is nothing in a warranty that protects customers from price increases. A warranty protects customers from shoddy workmanship and inferior materials for a specified period of time. In the case of CRK it is for as long as the original purchaser owns the knife.

As for the other business practices, I have no problem with them. Common sense, for the most part.

#2 is a no-brainer. That's just common courtesy.

#3 is ok, to a point. When "over delivery" starts cutting into the bottom line, that is usually an indication that it is being overdone a bit.

Matthew, what is confusing about the warranty in question? It covers defects in workmanship and materials, for the life of the original owner. How can that be confusing?

It doesn't matter when they show up as long as the knife is owned by the original purchaser. "For life" means "for life". If a defect manifests itself 1; 10; or 20 years down line, I would expect it to be taken care of under the terms of the warranty. If the conditions you describe existed, then you are correct. They should be covered. However, to assume that this is the case in this instance is without basis.

You wrote: "So if Chris isn't a liar, then Lenny must be?"..... That is total nonsense.

Chris Reeves' credentials are established. He knows what to look for when examining one of his products and is totally capable of determining if a problem is caused by a manufacturing defect, improper use or abuse.

Nowhere is it established that Lenny has developed those skills. The fact that he may not know what to look for, in no way, indicates that he is anything less than totally honest or sincere in his personal assessment of the situation. It only means that he might be wrong. I do not now, nor ever will, imply otherwise. Your conclusion there is totally inaccurate and improper.

If there was a "subtle defect", as you imply, Chris would have found it. He didn't so, obviously, there wasn't any. He, and only he, is the sole determinator of what constitutes abuse or improper use. No one else can make that determination.

As for your "philosophical problem", it appears that if the warranty were written to your liking, it would specify every instance and condition that is, and isn't, covered. It would become a legal document that would cost more to ship than the knife itself. That just isn't practical or necessary.

Naturally, everyone would like every product they purchase to be unconditionally guaranteed, forever, against any and all misfortune, including loss, (Schrade actually did that with their Uncle Henry line awhile back), but that is just not practical. Nor is it reasonable to expect every warranty to be written in such a manner as to require a lawyer in order to have any covered work done.

There is nothing wrong with the CRK warranty as written. It has sustained no damage by this incident. It still says what it means and means what it says and it was enforced according to the conditions it specified.

The only problem that I see is that it doesn't say what some people want it to say and that some people read more into it than is actually there.

I guess some folks are shocked to find out that Chris Reeve is a man who actually follows his own policies.

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Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
 
It is now the morning of the 18 th. Anne stated that she would be back on the 16 th. I am still wondering what CRK means by "Lifetime Warranty". And what exclusions we are now to expect....

Respectfully,
Michael

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He who has smelt the smoke is never free again...
 
Hey Michael-

You deserve your answer. Instead of waiting for them here, why don't you try: (from their website)

"You can reach us by calling (208) 375-0367

You can send an email to creeve@micron.net

You can send a letter to
Chris Reeve Knives
11624 W. President Dr., #B
Boise, ID 83713
U.S.A.

Or you can send a fax to (208) 375-0368"

Brandon
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
You wrote: "So if Chris isn't a liar, then Lenny must be?"..... That is total nonsense.
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Dennis, you make it sound much harsher than it is in context. I made it clear that I didn't think either was lying, but you beg the question with respect to what sorts of defects could show up after years that would be covered? How does one tell the difference between defects in materials and workmanship vs. abuse in subtle cases? I take it this was a subtle case. Lenny's knife wasn't cut in half, it wasn't melted, burned or crushed. It just wasn't locking up very solidly...


 
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