Damascus confusion..what gives?

D

DC

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Oct 3, 1998
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I had thought damascus patterns were determined by the "layer pattern" of the different metals....much like fudge swirl ice cream (fudge syrup and vanilla ice cream).

The latest issue of Knives Illustrated has tons of pics of Damascus and an article on Devin Thomas. On pages 72 and 73 there are some pics of a hydraulic press with "pattern dies" that make the patterns. The pic on page 72 shows the process and the barstock is place flat within. Thus it looks like the pattern (ladder in this case) is merely stamped in.

Anyone care to help me understand? Thanks
 
I'll give you some quick info because of time. There are many different styles of damascus if styles is the correct terminology
What you were describing is usually called random pattern damascus ie. several layers welded together swirling caused by hammering and gringing different thickness of material etc. Then there is pattern welded damascus.
This has a definate repeatable pattern to it
ie. Ladder, pool and eye, x's and o's etc. Then there is mosiac damascus which is done all on the end grain and the bar is cut into and opened up and flatened out accordian style. The ladder pattern you saw can be made by squishing the pattern across the billet and then flattening out ie. Devin. Or
the pattern can be cut across the billet with a grinder and flattened out. There is alot more to it of course. A good book to get is one of Jim Hirisolous (sp) Pattern welded Damascus or steel. Amazon.com has it.
Hope this was a little help

goshawk http://www.imt.net/~goshawk
 
Pattern welding and damascus are not the same thing at all. A modern knifesmith sees a pattern in damascus and says "oh my heavens! it must be pattern welded".

Unfortunately, pattern welding actualy refers to a way they made swords back before they could make homogenous steel swords in Europe. You have a core of high carbon steel and low carbon steel or iron twisted and forged together, and then a high carbon steel edge is welded on. This makes the overall balde tougher(compared to the poor quality steels they had back then, damascus offers no advantage other than looks over modern steels, pattern welding was abandonned some time around 700-800A.D. when European smiths, likely Scandanavians, developed the ability to make and forge crucible steels capable of withstanding the shocks of battle) but alows it to retain the superior edge-holding charachteristics of homogenous high-carbon steel.
 
I suppose there is one and only one definiton
of pattern welding in steel. What you described is also very close to sanmi, but then I guess you know everything there is to know about welding of steel!!!
 
I have never heard of sanmi. Do you mean San Mai III, as sold by Cold Steel? This is similar to laminated steels that were coming out of Scandanavia in recent times from what I've read, high carbon between layers of stainless. Reminescent of what McKlung does with his O1(I think that's what he's using) and hard chrome. I just checked the page, it seems Cold Steel thinks it resembles traditional Japanese steel. That's funny, I'd never heard of traditional katanas being made with stainless. Anyway, in this stuff high carbon is sandwiched between some other kind of steel, in pattern-welded it's a high carbon edged welded around a core of twisted and welded high carbon and low carbon or iron. Different stuff.

It's not a matter of being a know-it-all smarty pants, it's a matter of what is what. Damascus, when it was re-discovered, was being touted as pattern-welded, in the sense of what the old swords had been made of. It's not the same stuff. We have x-rayed plenty of swords. This is an established fact. Mind you, I'm talking about European swords, as pattern-welding is a term relating to them. Other cultures came up with other ways to deal with poor quality steels while their metalurgy was developing that have different names.

Yeah, I'm an abrasive a$$hole, never said I wasn't, but it's a little like if somebody kept calling you bulldog a doberman.

[This message has been edited by Snickersnee (edited 23 June 1999).]
 
I was not in a good mood when I answered.
I'ts obvious. I also don't spell ck very often. Damask was developed in the area of Damascus and was a patterened cloth. The welded steel that was original was developed in of course the region of Damascus in middle East and took its name from that, quite crude in the begining and just two dissimilar metals forge welded together, but very agressive cutting (very different than edge retention)compared to what was available. There is a reason for the word pattern wheather random or delibret. There has been alot of mistique built around Swords and knives of old. Of course Hollywood has contributed it's share. Some of the big thing about the old stuff was that it had upwards of 3000 layers. Anyone that has done forge welding knows how the carbon migrates and the metals start to homogenize after a period of time and it doesn't take that long. For awhile it was touted that it wasn't damsacus unless it had
512 layers. Damascus is a place that a process was developed... Ive' rambled on long enough.

goshawk
 
Getting back to my question...

Goshawk, so if I understand your explanation and the pics in KI...
a maker has a billet of heterogenous steels, inserts it in the die of predetermined pattern, stamps the pattern into the billet, then flattens and or squishes the billet such that the pattern is dispersed throughout the billet? Then goes on to grind or otherwise shape the blade.
This process would give a level of pattern consistency from billet to billet, correct?
 
Thanks
smile.gif
 
Dave Ellis ABS, Mastersmith Here. Typically when I create Damascus patterns I do it in primarily two ways. Sometimes I will forge the blade oversized (thicker than the final product) than grind in the ladders, drill in the pools and eyes,etc. I then will forge the blade down to final dimensions thereby closing the gaps caused by grinding or drilling. The second method that I usually employ is the forge or press the pattern in a slighly oversized (thickness again) blade billet and than stockremove (grind) the pattern out of the blade. Both if done correctly will produce nice symmetrical patterns in the steel. Hope that this helps.
Dave Ellis ABS, M.S. Feel free to check out my website for articles,etc. http://www.mastersmith.com
 
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