Damascus: cut and stack, or fold?

H

Hell's Half Acre

Joined
Mar 27, 2016
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Hi everyone,

I just started making knives with the goal of making damascus knives. I just completed my 1st damascus blade and after making the billet I'm wondering if theres a better way or if it will always take way more steel than you'd think. I was worried about getting good forge welds with no inclusions or delaminations so i started with 13 layers of 1095 and 15n20 and everytime i forged it out i ground the surfaces clean and cut and restacked and forge welded again. I wound up with a really good billet with no inclusions or delaminations but in the end i only had probably 60% or so of the steel i started with. I'm wondering if any of you have experience with the folding method and if you have good luck with getting solid welds with no inclusions or anything? Any input would be greatly appreciated. I'll include a picture of the knife below. Thank you.

20160323_121609_zpst4nodbuy.jpg
 
I always grind clean between welds......then cut and double. the only time I stack 3 pieces is for
san mai.
On average, by the time my billet is to 500+ layers, the weight is reduced around 40% or
a bit more. I don't mind the loss because, I no longer have inclusions or decarb lines...
 
Damascus is expensive to make, more expensive to buy. The loss of steel is just part of the price. I make a lot of feather pattern billets. I like the pattern and I like the challenge. There is a good deal of waste in this pattern but if I end up with the billet size I was shooting for I consider it a success no matter how much steel it took.

I use kerosene instead of a flux and with this method its a must to have clean surfaces and even edges. When I started making damascus a dozen years ago I cut most of the way through and then folded. I found that this increased the likelihood of delamination; the layers pulling apart at the fold.
Any think that can be done to assure a good final product should be done in order to assure, as much as possible, the quality of the final product.

Nice looking blade by the way. Fred
 
I dry weld with no flux so I grind each surface and stack. I have hot cut a fold and works ok as long as you can forge a nice finish.
 
JTknives said:
I dry weld with no flux so I grind each surface and stack. I have hot cut a fold and works ok as long as you can forge a nice finish.
Click to expand...

Are you using a coal forge to do that or gas? I'm new to this and haven't heard about doing it without flux. I guess i thought it was almost a requirement.
 
Gas forge run rich. But the entire weld must be welded in the first heat quickly befor it cools and builds up scale. I say get your skill down with flux welding first then try the dry welding.
 
I've done it both ways, and with flux and without. My normal practice is to cut, surface grind and re=stack and weld. Sometimes I use flux, others diesel. I used to just cut most of the way through with a hot cut and fold, but every now and then I'd get a flaw. Since grinding before stacking, I've almost eliminated flaws, except for where I screw up. One thing I've found that helps when folding is to wet forge on a clean anvil surface, the steam blows the scale off and helps prevent pockets where flux and scale can be trapped. Also, when folding I've had better results welding with a large hammer than going to the press or power hammer, the large rounding hammer helps to work flux and crap out, where as the power hammer or press will trap it if the surfaces are not flat.
 
I've only done a few billets myself. Just starting down the Damascus road. Each of the three billets I folded had inclusions. 100% waste. The restocked billets were better. I'm not very good with the hammer yet, so at least 50% waste, which is better than 100% waste. On the folded billets I cut most of the way through leaving a hinge, then hammering back from the fold. I don't think I was anywhere near flat enough to be successful.
 
HHA, just a quick observation, I'm in the 'learn what you can' phase with damscus, so I appreciate this post---that Damascus in that knife looks sweet--Good on ya brother!!!

One question, there are comments that gas forges run lean and that they run rich--what is meant by that, and which is the case?
 
Fish30114 said:
HHA, just a quick observation, I'm in the 'learn what you can' phase with damscus, so I appreciate this post---that Damascus in that knife looks sweet--Good on ya brother!!!

One question, there are comments that gas forges run lean and that they run rich--what is meant by that, and which is the case?
Click to expand...

Running lean is having an excess of oxygen, running rich is an excess of propane. Rich is good, lean is bad.

Here's a better answer than I can provide:

http://www.cashenblades.com/damascus.html
 
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Thanks for all the help everyone. I think from what I'm gathering from your collective knowledge is that i will keep grinding clean and cutting and stacking and live with the loss of steel in the hopes of bettering my chances of a good billet. Also, thanks for the compliments on my knife. I wasnt able to make the knife i set out to as i didnt end up with enough steel in my billet but i was very happy with the pattern in my billet.
 
You will always "lose" steel. The more complex the pattern, the more waste. Another factor is how you forge. Hand forging will produce a lot of waste. A press is better and a big hammer or rolling mill would be the best IMO for drawing out the bar stock because you need fewer heats to do it. I jokingly (yet not really) say that I reduce my billets to a useable thickness by converting a fair amount of the steel into forge scale on the floor under the press. ;) another thing that needs to be factored in is that you typically going to lose some at the ends of the bar no matter how you slice it (pun intended)
 
I hot cut, leaving a thin hinge and then grind the weld surfaces clean before folding. Have not had any flaws, except at the handle end for a long time.
I grind the initial bars clean before stacking. There is quite a bit of steel loss for sure.......between grinding clean, cutting off the handle end, and scale loss, it can be quite a bit. Plus some of the patterns need to be ground deep to get the effect you want.
Nice looking blade.:thumbup:

Darcy:)
 
If you have a press or power hammer, one method that reduces waste is to forge the billet out quite thin and grind clean and cut up in to four or five pieces, restack and reweld. This builds the layer count much faster reducing time in the forge and also reducing the amount of end peices that you have to grind or cut off.
 
Do you have access to a 7 1/2 inch right angle grinder and a cup stone?
6A080_AS01


They work like magic to surface the billet and they save you a lot of money in belts.

Starting out with as many layers as you can handle at the outset makes the process go quicker. If it will fit through the door of the forge, its good. A 21 layer billet to begin with is what I try for.

If you have not tried using hydrocarbon solvent instead of borax to weld you might want to give it a shot. It is much cleaner and you don't have to breath the particulate matter that floats around in the air when using borax. Hydrocarbon solvent will not eat the inside of your forge as well.

The hydrocarbon solvent gives me much cleaner welds than I had been getting with borax. I don't understand why, but I've been using this technique for about 3 years with excellent results.

Fred
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Do you have access to a 7 1/2 inch right angle grinder and a cup stone?
6A080_AS01


They work like magic to surface the billet and they save you a lot of money in belts.

Starting out with as many layers as you can handle at the outset makes the process go quicker. If it will fit through the door of the forge, its good. A 21 layer billet to begin with is what I try for.

If you have not tried using hydrocarbon solvent instead of borax to weld you might want to give it a shot. It is much cleaner and you don't have to breath the particulate matter that floats around in the air when using borax. Hydrocarbon solvent will not eat the inside of your forge as well.

The hydrocarbon solvent gives me much cleaner welds than I had been getting with borax. I don't understand why, but I've been using this technique for about 3 years with excellent results.

Fred
Click to expand...

Where do you get hydrocarbon solvent? I do have a large right angle grinder so that definitely would save on belts and i normally forge the bar out to 1/4" thick and cut into 3-4 pieces.
 
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