So I forged welded a billet using 15N20 and 1084. I ended up with 304 layers and cut in an X ladder pattern on the final billet. Completed the knife, sanded, soaked in acid and no pattern appears. WHAT???? I guess the only thing that could have happened is I accidentally used the same metal, which I staggered... lol. I just don't think I did that. I even remember seeing the different metals when welding the corners. I'm at a complete loss and wasted many hours to get nothing in the end. Is there any other possibility that I may be overlooking? Any help is appreciated....Thank you!
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Damascus Failure
- Thread starter MM61
- Start date
Joshua Fisher
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Where did you get the steel? both new steels and not recycled? What acid are you etching in? How did you harden the piece and did you confirm it’s hardened even just a simple file test? What grit are you at on your finish? How long are you soaking in acid? Is anything happening when you dunk in acid or is it staying bright? So many variables and like Hoss asked a picture would help, without a membership you’ll need to use a hosting site, you can find sticky’s pinned at the top of this subforurm that walk you through how to post photos
With how many layers of steel did you start ? And what thickness were they ? Maybe you end up with mono steel
A picture wo
19..... 1/8" thick. I think it may be the 15N20 I ordered. It was cheaper than anywhere else I purchased in the past so it might be recycled steel or something.With how many layers of steel did you start ? And what thickness were they ? Maybe you end up with mono steel
OK, I will need to get some more FC. So I tempered at 375 degrees for 1 hour, two cycles..... would that be appropriate?
I saw your website. You show 400 degrees for your carbon steel tempering. I'm afraid I may have gotten some bad 15N20. It was cheaper than most other sites and came gray looking in color.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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The stickys has the info on how to post a photo.
The things that make the pattern show are:
1) Ferric Chloride strength and freshness. - If it is old or diluted with something that reacts with it, it may not etch well or take a long time. I recommend using stock FC solution and water diluted 1:3 (FC:Water). I have not had the best results with vinegar as the dilutant. I prefer to mix it from dehydrated powder or chunks bought from eBay or other sites.
2) Metal condition - The steel must be sanded to around 400-600 grit for the best results and must be absolutely clean. Degrease it with acetone then was well with Dawn or Simple Green. Rinse with hot water well and do not touch it any more than necessary. Immediately place in the etch tank.
3) Time - FC may make the surface black in a short time, but takes longer to eat away the steel layers to form a pattern. Sometimes it can take 30 minutes or longer to get a good etch. Take the blade out every 3-5 minutes and rinse it with a garden hose, wipe it off with a clean paper towel, rinse again and place back in the FC tank. Check again in 3-5 minutes.
4) Tank size. You want a sufficient volume of FC to do the task. A gallon is the minimum. A piece of 4" PVC pipe with a closed closet fitting or closet flange fitting for the bottom and a cap for the top (to cover it when not in use) makes a great tank. 16" is plenty deep enough for most blades. Use good grade PVC cement when sealing the bottom to the tube. You just slip the top cap on loosely to cover it when not in use.
5) Temperature. FC works best at normal room temp. Around 70°F/21°C is perfect. In practice, 60-90°F/15-32°C is fine. Too hot or too cold may affect the action.
Here is an old post I made on etching:
How long to etch???? It can take from 30 seconds to just check the pattern to 30 minutes to get a deep etch on some steels. Most etch to give a reasonable topography (peaks and valleys) in 5 to 15 minutes. Room temperature is fine.
Clean the blade thoroughly with dish soap and running hot water. Don't touch it on the blade area after cleaning.
Place the knife in the FC and let sit for a few minutes. Take out and wipe the black crud off with a clean paper towel. Rinse off and put back in the FC. Repeat the wipe off every 3-5 minutes as needed. The crud covers the blade and stops or slows down the etch.
While the black color looks cool, it is just the surface and will mostly wipe off. Etching is about creating high and low spots in damascus or getting a patina on monosteels. It won't make a blade black. Also, the surface color is only a few millionths of an inch thick and will wipe or rub off easily. The normal result after cleaning is a darker gray tone/patina.
When done with your etch scrub the blade in running water with a stiff brush (most of the black will come off), then scrub with baking soda and hot water. A neutralizing wash with TSP or ammonia cleaner will help prevent future rust spots showing up.
Some folks take the blade from the FC when done and rinse it off but leave the black crud on and then boil it in water for about 30 minutes. This helps remove any Fc in cracks and some say it helps the black etch stay on better. I don't do that and really don't see a reason besides getting the last FC out of the cracks. I would still give it a good spray with TSP when done just to be sure all FC is gone. Those who do this procedure may chime in with their comments on it.
When done with the etch and clean-up, lightly sand with 2000 grit paper to bring out the highlights and contrast.
Here is how to mix FC:
Mix outdoors and don't breath the fumes when it is dissolving. Wearing gloves and a face shield, is a good practice. Add the powder to the water .... never the other way around. Add slowly.
FC should be mixed to make a 42 Baume stock solution. You add one pound of crystals to 18 ounces of water to get this strength - one pound to one pint is close enough. Once mixed, let it cool and store in a sturdy plastic jug. Let it sit for a few day before use.
Dilute the working solution from this stock . Three parts water to one part stock is what I use.
2# of FC powder/chunks in a gallon of water makes a normal user solution if you don't want to make a stock solution.
Mix in a stiff plastic pail like a drywall bucket. It will get hot while mixing, so add slowly and stir well. Stand upwind and don't breathe the fumes. Wear eye protection and clothing that can get stained. FC stains a lovely orange and is hard to get out.
The liquid will get warm/hot as you mix it, so add the powder slowly to the liquid in a large heavy plastic drywall type bucket. Add slowly, stir gently, keeping upwind. A fan running behind you to push the chlorine vapors away is a good idea. When the solution has completely mixed, cover loosely and let cool off before transferring into a heavy duty plastic storage bottle. Use a funnel and pour slowly. Pour over dirt or grass, as FC will stain concrete and can ruin deck boards (don't ask me how I know this
)
Stacy E.Apelt
The things that make the pattern show are:
1) Ferric Chloride strength and freshness. - If it is old or diluted with something that reacts with it, it may not etch well or take a long time. I recommend using stock FC solution and water diluted 1:3 (FC:Water). I have not had the best results with vinegar as the dilutant. I prefer to mix it from dehydrated powder or chunks bought from eBay or other sites.
2) Metal condition - The steel must be sanded to around 400-600 grit for the best results and must be absolutely clean. Degrease it with acetone then was well with Dawn or Simple Green. Rinse with hot water well and do not touch it any more than necessary. Immediately place in the etch tank.
3) Time - FC may make the surface black in a short time, but takes longer to eat away the steel layers to form a pattern. Sometimes it can take 30 minutes or longer to get a good etch. Take the blade out every 3-5 minutes and rinse it with a garden hose, wipe it off with a clean paper towel, rinse again and place back in the FC tank. Check again in 3-5 minutes.
4) Tank size. You want a sufficient volume of FC to do the task. A gallon is the minimum. A piece of 4" PVC pipe with a closed closet fitting or closet flange fitting for the bottom and a cap for the top (to cover it when not in use) makes a great tank. 16" is plenty deep enough for most blades. Use good grade PVC cement when sealing the bottom to the tube. You just slip the top cap on loosely to cover it when not in use.
5) Temperature. FC works best at normal room temp. Around 70°F/21°C is perfect. In practice, 60-90°F/15-32°C is fine. Too hot or too cold may affect the action.
Here is an old post I made on etching:
How long to etch???? It can take from 30 seconds to just check the pattern to 30 minutes to get a deep etch on some steels. Most etch to give a reasonable topography (peaks and valleys) in 5 to 15 minutes. Room temperature is fine.
Clean the blade thoroughly with dish soap and running hot water. Don't touch it on the blade area after cleaning.
Place the knife in the FC and let sit for a few minutes. Take out and wipe the black crud off with a clean paper towel. Rinse off and put back in the FC. Repeat the wipe off every 3-5 minutes as needed. The crud covers the blade and stops or slows down the etch.
While the black color looks cool, it is just the surface and will mostly wipe off. Etching is about creating high and low spots in damascus or getting a patina on monosteels. It won't make a blade black. Also, the surface color is only a few millionths of an inch thick and will wipe or rub off easily. The normal result after cleaning is a darker gray tone/patina.
When done with your etch scrub the blade in running water with a stiff brush (most of the black will come off), then scrub with baking soda and hot water. A neutralizing wash with TSP or ammonia cleaner will help prevent future rust spots showing up.
Some folks take the blade from the FC when done and rinse it off but leave the black crud on and then boil it in water for about 30 minutes. This helps remove any Fc in cracks and some say it helps the black etch stay on better. I don't do that and really don't see a reason besides getting the last FC out of the cracks. I would still give it a good spray with TSP when done just to be sure all FC is gone. Those who do this procedure may chime in with their comments on it.
When done with the etch and clean-up, lightly sand with 2000 grit paper to bring out the highlights and contrast.
Here is how to mix FC:
Mix outdoors and don't breath the fumes when it is dissolving. Wearing gloves and a face shield, is a good practice. Add the powder to the water .... never the other way around. Add slowly.
FC should be mixed to make a 42 Baume stock solution. You add one pound of crystals to 18 ounces of water to get this strength - one pound to one pint is close enough. Once mixed, let it cool and store in a sturdy plastic jug. Let it sit for a few day before use.
Dilute the working solution from this stock . Three parts water to one part stock is what I use.
2# of FC powder/chunks in a gallon of water makes a normal user solution if you don't want to make a stock solution.
Mix in a stiff plastic pail like a drywall bucket. It will get hot while mixing, so add slowly and stir well. Stand upwind and don't breathe the fumes. Wear eye protection and clothing that can get stained. FC stains a lovely orange and is hard to get out.
The liquid will get warm/hot as you mix it, so add the powder slowly to the liquid in a large heavy plastic drywall type bucket. Add slowly, stir gently, keeping upwind. A fan running behind you to push the chlorine vapors away is a good idea. When the solution has completely mixed, cover loosely and let cool off before transferring into a heavy duty plastic storage bottle. Use a funnel and pour slowly. Pour over dirt or grass, as FC will stain concrete and can ruin deck boards (don't ask me how I know this
)Stacy E.Apelt
Stacy,The stickys has the info on how to post a photo.
The things that make the pattern show are:
1) Ferric Chloride strength and freshness. - If it is old or diluted with something that reacts with it, it may not etch well or take a long time. I recommend using stock FC solution and water diluted 1:3 (FC:Water). I have not had the best results with vinegar as the dilutant. I prefer to mix it from dehydrated powder or chunks bought from eBay or other sites.
2) Metal condition - The steel must be sanded to around 400-600 grit for the best results and must be absolutely clean. Degrease it with acetone then was well with Dawn or Simple Green. Rinse with hot water well and do not touch it any more than necessary. Immediately place in the etch tank.
3) Time - FC may make the surface black in a short time, but takes longer to eat away the steel layers to form a pattern. Sometimes it can take 30 minutes or longer to get a good etch. Take the blade out every 3-5 minutes and rinse it with a garden hose, wipe it off with a clean paper towel, rinse again and place back in the FC tank. Check again in 3-5 minutes.
4) Tank size. You want a sufficient volume of FC to do the task. A gallon is the minimum. A piece of 4" PVC pipe with a closed closet fitting or closet flange fitting for the bottom and a cap for the top (to cover it when not in use) makes a great tank. 16" is plenty deep enough for most blades. Use good grade PVC cement when sealing the bottom to the tube. You just slip the top cap on loosely to cover it when not in use.
5) Temperature. FC works best at normal room temp. Around 70°F/21°C is perfect. In practice, 60-90°F/15-32°C is fine. Too hot or too cold may affect the action.
Here is an old post I made on etching:
How long to etch???? It can take from 30 seconds to just check the pattern to 30 minutes to get a deep etch on some steels. Most etch to give a reasonable topography (peaks and valleys) in 5 to 15 minutes. Room temperature is fine.
Clean the blade thoroughly with dish soap and running hot water. Don't touch it on the blade area after cleaning.
Place the knife in the FC and let sit for a few minutes. Take out and wipe the black crud off with a clean paper towel. Rinse off and put back in the FC. Repeat the wipe off every 3-5 minutes as needed. The crud covers the blade and stops or slows down the etch.
While the black color looks cool, it is just the surface and will mostly wipe off. Etching is about creating high and low spots in damascus or getting a patina on monosteels. It won't make a blade black. Also, the surface color is only a few millionths of an inch thick and will wipe or rub off easily. The normal result after cleaning is a darker gray tone/patina.
When done with your etch scrub the blade in running water with a stiff brush (most of the black will come off), then scrub with baking soda and hot water. A neutralizing wash with TSP or ammonia cleaner will help prevent future rust spots showing up.
Some folks take the blade from the FC when done and rinse it off but leave the black crud on and then boil it in water for about 30 minutes. This helps remove any Fc in cracks and some say it helps the black etch stay on better. I don't do that and really don't see a reason besides getting the last FC out of the cracks. I would still give it a good spray with TSP when done just to be sure all FC is gone. Those who do this procedure may chime in with their comments on it.
When done with the etch and clean-up, lightly sand with 2000 grit paper to bring out the highlights and contrast.
Here is how to mix FC:
Mix outdoors and don't breath the fumes when it is dissolving. Wearing gloves and a face shield, is a good practice. Add the powder to the water .... never the other way around. Add slowly.
FC should be mixed to make a 42 Baume stock solution. You add one pound of crystals to 18 ounces of water to get this strength - one pound to one pint is close enough. Once mixed, let it cool and store in a sturdy plastic jug. Let it sit for a few day before use.
Dilute the working solution from this stock . Three parts water to one part stock is what I use.
2# of FC powder/chunks in a gallon of water makes a normal user solution if you don't want to make a stock solution.
Mix in a stiff plastic pail like a drywall bucket. It will get hot while mixing, so add slowly and stir well. Stand upwind and don't breathe the fumes. Wear eye protection and clothing that can get stained. FC stains a lovely orange and is hard to get out.
The liquid will get warm/hot as you mix it, so add the powder slowly to the liquid in a large heavy plastic drywall type bucket. Add slowly, stir gently, keeping upwind. A fan running behind you to push the chlorine vapors away is a good idea. When the solution has completely mixed, cover loosely and let cool off before transferring into a heavy duty plastic storage bottle. Use a funnel and pour slowly. Pour over dirt or grass, as FC will stain concrete and can ruin deck boards (don't ask me how I know this
Stacy E.Apelt
That is a heck of an explanation! Thank you.... this is more than helpful. I can also verify that FC will stain concrete.... (don't ask me how I know)
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 37,925
The pattern is there. It just needs a longer and deeper etch. You also need to sand it more and better.
Yes, I finished sanding it this morning. It's almost mirror like now. I guess just throw it back in the acid and let it sit for a long time.....
Yes sir… I addressed those areas. Typically I have seen a pattern when heat treating… this one I saw nothing. So I ground in an edge and tried the acid bath before I put anymore time into this knife. Still nothing so I stopped working on it and came here for advice. This is only my 4th Damascus and never ran into this issue.