damascus, is it all for looks?

sogflash

sogflash

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Aug 28, 2011
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can someone explain what damascus steel is? I believe it's steel that has been folded over and over again.

can it be done with all types of steel? vg10, 154cm, s30v and other common types of blade steel.
 
Its a steel created from the combination of a number of different steels. Its all for looks and exclusivity IMO. It won't take an edge any better or out perform any of the higher end knife steels that you have mentioned. Personally, I think it looks like crap. Nothing looks as nice as a mirror polished or bead blasted blade.....these are just my thoughts on it.
 
Don't get me wrong, the guys who make Damascus blades are true artisans and they deserve due respect. I just would prefer to use the knives I pay a small fortune for rather than worry about scuffing up the blade.
 
Does proper Damascus Steel(where they fold the steel hundreds if not thousands of times) have better performance though? I think Traditional Japanese Katanas are still made this way aren't they?
 
Lets just put it this way - i will not pay extra $$$ for Damascus if the knife is available in regular steel.
 
Traditional Katanas were made from folded steel for the sole reason that their steel was not very good and had a lot of impurities. They had to fold the steel so many times in order to create something highly usable. It won't provide better performance. What makes Japanese blades so great is the design, they are true slicers and very fast and light but european steel was of a far superior quality. Folded steel is not Damascus, its the same steel folded upon its self. Damascus is a number of different steels, this is where you get your pattern on the blade.
 
roughneckrob said:
Traditional Katanas were made from folded steel for the sole reason that their steel was not very good and had a lot of impurities. They had to fold the steel so many times in order to create something highly usable. It won't provide better performance. What makes Japanese blades so great is the design, they are true slicers and very fast and light but european steel was of a far superior quality.
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Ok thanks,Did not know this, I mean I knew about folding gets rid of impurities in the steel but always thougt that the all the folding creates a greater performing steel...

Hehe if we had a Time Machine we could go back in time and tell Goro Masamune he was just wasting his time with all that folding he just needs better steel,LOL.

*Of course his Katanas would be a pretty good investment if you could Time Travel back and buy them cheap from him
 
Historically damascus was done in an attempt to improve the qualities of the rather poor steels available at the time (think middle ages). These days it's for looks... In theory I think it would be possible to make damascus out of any steel including the ones you mentioned, but it could be really hard to do and I've never heard of damascus out of S30V :)
 
There are two kinds of steel commonly referred to as "damascus" steel: wootz and pattern welded. Pattern welded steel is the most commonly seen but is not "true" damascus, and the patterning is the result of (usually contrasting) layers of steel being forge-welded. This method was used commonly in east Asia to compensate for the uneven distribution of carbon in the ingots resulting from their smelting process, and was a post-smelting method to homogenize the steel. Different grades of steel would then often be sandwiched to give specific regions of the blade varying degrees of hardness to balance toughness and edge retention. This method was used in Europe primarily before the (medieval) discovery of "modern" smelting techniques for ore extraction, and allowed small pieces of ore to be combined to form a larger mass. With the development of better smelting techniques virtually every edged tool was switched to monosteel as it was no longer necessary and could, in fact, potentially cause weaknesses in a blade as a result of imperfect welds. Today the technique is used only because of its cosmetic properties.

Wootz steel or "true damascus" is not folded, and gets its patterning from carbide banding. Wootz was originally made from ore found in some select Indian mines which contained trace carbide-forming elements. When smelted and worked in a particular way, carbides would form in distinctive patterns during heat treatment. Wootz steel exhibited superior toughness and edge retention for its day, but is now far outclassed by modern steels in terms of performance.
 
roughneckrob said:
Its a steel created from the combination of a number of different steels. Its all for looks and exclusivity IMO. It won't take an edge any better or out perform any of the higher end knife steels that you have mentioned. Personally, I think it looks like crap. Nothing looks as nice as a mirror polished or bead blasted blade.....these are just my thoughts on it.
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I agree. I also think it looks like crap.
 
There are some knife-makers who use Damascus (for looks) but then bond the cutting edge with 52100 steel, the steel more commonly used for ball-bearings. As I understand it, a few yrs ago, some custom makers used to make the entire blade out of 52100 and it was hot stuff then. 52100 is a stainless and holds it edge for quite a while.
And yes, they do it for looks today. The patterns can be quite beautiful.
Sonny
 
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I would add that you can't just make damascus out of just any two steels and have a decent blade. Different steels often have different heat treating needs.There is a limited number of stainless damascus steels.

I have seen some patterns that are appealing to me but I don't as a rule just buy things to look at. I won't say I'll never buy a damascus knife but it is highly improbable. (It would have to be a super deal at a garage sale or the like.)

Grizz
 
Put it this way: Some time in the future, your great-great-grandson will show your S30V knife, and his friend with a light saber will call CPM whack.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
There are two kinds of steel commonly referred to as "damascus" steel: wootz and pattern welded. Pattern welded steel is the most commonly seen but is not "true" damascus, and the patterning is the result of (usually contrasting) layers of steel being forge-welded. This method was used commonly in east Asia to compensate for the uneven distribution of carbon in the ingots resulting from their smelting process, and was a post-smelting method to homogenize the steel. Different grades of steel would then often be sandwiched to give specific regions of the blade varying degrees of hardness to balance toughness and edge retention. This method was used in Europe primarily before the (medieval) discovery of "modern" smelting techniques for ore extraction, and allowed small pieces of ore to be combined to form a larger mass. With the development of better smelting techniques virtually every edged tool was switched to monosteel as it was no longer necessary and could, in fact, potentially cause weaknesses in a blade as a result of imperfect welds. Today the technique is used only because of its cosmetic properties.

Wootz steel or "true damascus" is not folded, and gets its patterning from carbide banding. Wootz was originally made from ore found in some select Indian mines which contained trace carbide-forming elements. When smelted and worked in a particular way, carbides would form in distinctive patterns during heat treatment. Wootz steel exhibited superior toughness and edge retention for its day, but is now far outclassed by modern steels in terms of performance.
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Great answer. spot on.

OP, for more information and less opinion, ask this question in the Bladesmiths Question and Answer section. You'll get more answers/facts like the one above.

Edited for less snark. Sorry, been a bad day.
 
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