Damascus; is it art or not art ?

Fred.Rowe

Fred.Rowe

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
May 2, 2004
Messages
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Do you consider damascus itself an art form?

If so, why?

If not, why?

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It sure is!
your taking two more more seperate Items and creating something with patterns or even objects in the finished material much like a metal sculpture...a good piece of damascus can make or break a knife...and thats all based on a persons ability to manipulate materials much like a graphic artist manipulates paints or pencils...
 
Fred, if you're referring to your knife, then yes, you did a great job on it. If you're talking about just "Damascus" (pattern welded billet), then no, not to me anyway. My why not? Well, the way your question is worded, you're asking if Damascus is an art form. That could be a billet of several pieces of steel made homoginous (sp?) by forge welding. Now that billet, by itself, is not art in my opinion. Make it into a nice knife and it could be. Make it into a doorstop and I guess then it would be in the eye of the beholder. These billets are used for a lot things, including spurs, paper weights, animal figures, flowers, leaves, probably anything you can come up with. Again, your knife, and a lot of knives and other objects that are made from Damascus, I see as art. I've seen some knives that would only be considered "art" by the maker, but not anyone else. I've made a few of those.
 
rhrocker said:
Fred, if you're referring to your knife, then yes, you did a great job on it. If you're talking about just "Damascus" (pattern welded billet), then no, not to me anyway. My why not? Well, the way your question is worded, you're asking if Damascus is an art form. That could be a billet of several pieces of steel made homoginous (sp?) by forge welding. Now that billet, by itself, is not art in my opinion. Make it into a nice knife and it could be. Make it into a doorstop and I guess then it would be in the eye of the beholder. These billets are used for a lot things, including spurs, paper weights, animal figures, flowers, leaves, probably anything you can come up with. Again, your knife, and a lot of knives and other objects that are made from Damascus, I see as art. I've seen some knives that would only be considered "art" by the maker, but not anyone else. I've made a few of those.
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I'm not referring to my work specifically. I'm interested in what other makers think of damascus as an art form. In what form would they consider it an art form. Show examples

Fred
 
Personally, it depends on how it comes out. Using Jim Rehrer's paint and pencils, if I use said pencils to do some maths, I won't think of it as art, but if I use those to draw a picture, I would consider it to be art. Similarly, some Damascus is more technical, while others (for example, the tiles Ed Schempp does for Spyderco) are most definitely art.
 
Art is subjective... but if pissing in a jar and putting a crucifix in it is art, then damascus is most definitly art. I am not an artsy fartsy kind of guy but I judge art by wether or not I can see the artists mindset in the work. This leaves alot of room granted but it cuts out the stoner putz that pisses on crosses.
 
I think I'd answer this by saying that in my opinion damascus itself certainly CAN be art, but that certainly doesn't hold true for all damascus. In my opinion, while a good random pattern billet can be beautiful when made into a knife, the billet itself is not art in that case. The 'smith in that case is counting on a lack of control in the work to make a pattern for him/her.

The line where damascus begins to be "art" in my eyes is that point at which the 'smith making the billet has a certain control of the pattern and is getting what he/she is INTENDING out of the billet and doing to repeatably. In particular folks like Delbert Ealy, Robert Eggerling, Hugh Bartrug, Jim Hrisoulas, Ed Caffrey, etc (I could go on and on with this list I just realized...) who understand (or in the late Mr. Bartrug's case understood) what's happening inside the steel as they manipulate it to develop a complex and regular pattern are, to me, artists. You want to see examples? Go hit google and search for some of the names I listed above and see what amazing stuff these guys are doing. Google for "mosaic damascus" to find yet more. There is true artistry to be found in the patterns these folks are capable of creating. To my way of thinking they are part artist, part scientist, and part mechanical savant. No matter which way you slice it, you've simply got to give these folks a large measure of respect.

-d
 
deker said:
I think I'd answer this by saying that in my opinion damascus itself certainly CAN be art, but that certainly doesn't hold true for all damascus. In my opinion, while a good random pattern billet can be beautiful when made into a knife, the billet itself is not art in that case. The 'smith in that case is counting on a lack of control in the work to make a pattern for him/her.

The line where damascus begins to be "art" in my eyes is that point at which the 'smith making the billet has a certain control of the pattern and is getting what he/she is INTENDING out of the billet and doing to repeatably. In particular folks like Delbert Ealy, Robert Eggerling, Hugh Bartrug, Jim Hrisoulas, Ed Caffrey, etc (I could go on and on with this list I just realized...) who understand (or in the late Mr. Bartrug's case understood) what's happening inside the steel as they manipulate it to develop a complex and regular pattern are, to me, artists. You want to see examples? Go hit google and search for some of the names I listed above and see what amazing stuff these guys are doing. Google for "mosaic damascus" to find yet more. There is true artistry to be found in the patterns these folks are capable of creating. To my way of thinking they are part artist, part scientist, and part mechanical savant. No matter which way you slice it, you've simply got to give these folks a large measure of respect.

-d
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I am capable on taking Ealy, Eggerling, Bartrug, Hrisoulas, Caffrey, et. als. best Damascus and completely ruining it! I am also capable of doing some wonderful work with it also. I've made knives that are IMHO art. I make mostly tools! Some of my tools are art. In my opinion, damascus is art.

I can make the most boring, "done before by every pattern welding bladesmith" damascus billet, and probably can't turn it into art. But, if I give that billet to an Ed Caffrey or equivalent artist, they can keep that boring pattern and use it and match handle materials, guards, inlay, jewels, engraving, scrimshaw and working around it could turn it into a piece of art! I believe that any piece of damascus can "most likely" become part of an art work (in the right artists hands).

I aspire to some day get to the point of being capable of being that good. The best part, is that when you get that good at creating art from boring damascus patterns.....you no longer are making boring damascus patterns. I have great admiration for these true artists who share our afflication!
 
Oh....Fred...

That damascus billet that you made is truly art in my opinion. I also believe that once you turn it into a knife, it will be a spectacular piece of art! I love the pattern that you developed in that billet. Nice work!
 
Simply put... Yes. Even if it's just a random pattern I think it's an art form; however, when it's planned it's a master piece.

That piece you have there is a beauty.
 
While damascus can obviously be art, I think most of what's done falls under the 'craft' category, at least most of the damascus I do. There is, perhaps a stronger art attribute to it than other crafts, but to me most of what I see is craft.
 
Damascus begins as science. Combining different alloys to let them work well together and look great doing it, can be accomplished in very clear and repeatable ways. I have a lot of respect and admiration for you makers who've proven that, time and again.

Once the human mind wraps itself around the how, it often begins to wonder why, and why not. And you find creative folks coming up with really stunning visual designs in steel, that can also perform very well.

If it's art for art's sake, it better be pretty damn good. If it's artfully made, and form follows function, it's a thing of beauty.
 
I would go further, I have numerous knives that are custom made. They are all tools but are crafted well and are carried for enjoyment. They are art, working art. Compiled and put together for asthetic enjoyment whilst maintaining original purpose.

I find 'art knives' frequently devoid of purpose and art for art's sake, therefore less likely to be a real art.
 
Damascus is an art at least at this point. Some is good art and some is poor. I have a piece of 1095/nickel twist that is still just a round cylinder and people love it just that way. When you look at a completed billet with the changing patterns and lines it is an object that causes one to think and enjoy and to me that is art.
 
I would have to say that damascus id not art, it is a medium. Like wood, paint, silver, or clay, there is no inherent art in the medium, the art comes from the person manipulating the medium, in this case the damascus smith.

Ken
 
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