Damascus knives are there any advantages

How do you feel about damascus steel

  • It is inferior to many modern blade steels

    Votes: 35 29.9%

  • When done right it is a great performing and attractive option

    Votes: 66 56.4%

  • The risk of hidden inclusions or weld failure is a big concern

    Votes: 7 6.0%

  • I don't care about the steel, it is the design and geometry of the knife that matters most

    Votes: 9 7.7%
  • Total voters
    117
My opinion:
Just give me CPM-3V or 80CRV2 and I'll be more than satisfied. I only care about performance, I don't care about looks so Damascus means nothing to me.
 
Motega said:
Originally, damascus steel was both a process and a product that formed carbon nanotubes and that's why it outperformed the other metal weapons of the time. Until the last few decades, this was not understood and pattern welded steel was an aesthetically pleasing and decent performing blade material.
Today, the arguments about different steels are really only useful as an academic exercise. Don't get me wrong, I love the research and micrographs and fractions of difference in performance we can conclude by testing, but the reality is that I don't care if you are using a Buck 110 in cheap stainless or the latest high tech steel, after taking apart a deer or elk you are going to need to strop that blade if not fully sharpen it if you didn't use a thick blade to break through the pelvis and other spots bone needs dealing with.

And if you are using your knife to open boxes, it's your life, but that's a pretty dumb thing to do when a boxcutter is the right tool for the job.

My grandfather used to say that flashy fishing lures vs. a good old Rapala popper or Mepps spinner was designed to catch the fisherman, not the fish. It's the same with knife steels. I've yet to find a steel that maintains a hair whittling edge after the first cut or two, and after that most of them stay sharp enough for regular tasks regardless of the steel. It's fun to chase the latest and greatest but completely unnecessary for practical purposes.

The only exception are the truly stainless blades like H1, cobalt, SM-100 which you can abuse with saltwater for a few days of surf fishing without pitting or rust.
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carbon nanotubes? really? I thought the evidence for it fairly suspect... given what I've studied about them since 93 when they were discovered

https://www.nature.com/news/2006/061113/full/061113-11.html
"But his suggestion isn't necessarily rock solid. Steel expert John Verhoeven, of Iowa State University in Ames, suggests Paufler is seeing something else. Cementite can itself exist as rods, he notes, so there might not be any carbon nanotubes in the rod-like structure."

and
https://www.nature.com/articles/444286a

I'd love to hear Larrin Larrin talk about this... it seems there is something interesting going on, but it may not be actual carbon nanotubes
 
I would trust Larrin's take on this as well. I'm not sure what the difference is between a nanotube and nanowire, but the plant based carbon used in the production of Wootz was almost certainly part of the reason it was so great.

(https://bhavyabharatam.blogspot.com/2020/01/wootz-steel-history.html)
Now, as per the studies, it is clear that the ultra-high carbon content was responsible for the extraordinary strength of the wootz. Due to superplastic forging, cementite broke up and this lead to its spheroidal structure. Not only this but the size of ferrite and cementite got refined, thus, leading to improved ductility and toughness.

It is also speculated that cementite got refined to nanometric scale and these carbon nanotubes or nanowires may have affected the growth kinetics of the microstructure. These nanotubes opposed crack propagation and also acted as obstacles for dislocation.
 
As Verhoeven said the claim of carbon nanotubes is highly unlikely. I agree with him that this was likely a case of mistaken identification. I have looked at the micrographs they provided and it looks a lot like pearlite. To demonstrate conclusively that something that looks a lot like pearlite is in fact carbon nanotubes would take a lot more evidence then they have shared.
 
it would be cool as heck to try forging some actual nanotube & steel layered hybrid material.... maybe call it 'nanomascus' or something lol

get really thin sheets of aeb-l or 12c27 (both are available super thin due to razor production) and layer them with sheets of graphene (which is essentially what you'd get if you unrolled a carbon nanotube into large sheets)

my guess is that forging them and folding them would result in serious delam issues or they'd fail to forge at all...

but if it did work, you might get something like a shell composite - aka nacre - mother of pearl :)
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191023150330.htm

fun time to be into this stuff...
 
The temperature from forging would likely cause any carbon structures like graphene or diamond to get dissolved into the steel. Same reason why manufacturers say not to use diamond cutting tools on ferrous materials.
 
Zeunerite said:
The temperature from forging would likely cause any carbon structures like graphene or diamond to get dissolved into the steel. Same reason why manufacturers say not to use diamond cutting tools on ferrous materials.
Click to expand...
Well you just give me idea .........:) What if i use carbon fiber or diamonds as additional layer when i make next san mai ? I mean ....... stainless - carbon fiber or diamonds- carbon steel - carbon fiber or diamonds - stainless steel ?? I Wonder how mach carbon can be solved in steel :)
 
Zeunerite said:
The temperature from forging would likely cause any carbon structures like graphene or diamond to get dissolved into the steel. Same reason why manufacturers say not to use diamond cutting tools on ferrous materials.
Click to expand...
Well , I use them for sharpening knives and it works . ....As far as i know to react/get dissolved diamond need some high temperature . This was for sharpening tungsten carbide but on 22 000 RPM i sharpen my knives .......
ZutWPuk.jpg
 
The blades themselves don't need to be hot, but the materials being removed by a grinder could easily go over 1000C from the rapid deformation during their brief contact with the abrasives.
Though it should be fine as long you don't go fast enough to produce sparks.
 
I was sick for a few day's. I think this is the bottom line. Without directly quoting them. According to BladeHQ, Damascus steel' performance is directly dependent on the steels used to make it. Mike Norris uses good steel. Is it today's super steels? Probably not. I like it. For very light duty usage it hardly matters. I might as well use 440A for my tasks. In fact if I did not like Damascus, a 420HC Buck is already overkill for me. Save me a fortune though. Off topic. I just got a Michael Walker, With Mike Norris of course. I mean a real one. It is not my first. It has Damascus handles. I don't think anyone can discount "light duty" as non usage. At least none of mine are Safe Queens. I figure this is the end of this thread. Enough has been said.
 
jamesculver said:
There always seems to be mystery behind Damascus steel and knives. I've looked into the process of making the steel and the layers, minimum 300 folds, that create this very durable metal. The metal is forged from 1095 and 15N20. My understanding is that the swirls seen on the blade is the different metals that were forged together and come out after an acid etching. Damascus steel knives seem to bring a premium. Are these knives worth the cost? I don't see any of the knife makers on the forum talk or make Damascus steel knives. Is the process to time consuming? What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

New vid from @Larrin :) Damascus

@Larrin has posted this great new vid (thanks!) enjoy & thoughts? share your own experiences :D
www.bladeforums.com www.bladeforums.com
 
jamesculver said:
There always seems to be mystery behind Damascus steel and knives. I've looked into the process of making the steel and the layers, minimum 300 folds, that create this very durable metal. The metal is forged from 1095 and 15N20. My understanding is that the swirls seen on the blade is the different metals that were forged together and come out after an acid etching. Damascus steel knives seem to bring a premium. Are these knives worth the cost? I don't see any of the knife makers on the forum talk or make Damascus steel knives. Is the process to time consuming? What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
When I was a lad (many, many moons ago) one of my uncles (he was not a metalurgist or knife maker, or even a "knife nut", for that matter.) claimed the "advantages" of a damascus blade was first, appearance, second the knife appeared to "hold an edge longer" because the two or more steels used to make it have different wear properties, giving a microscopic "toothy"edge.

I do not know what book or magazine was his source of informaton.
(The Internet and personal computers had not been invented yet, when he told me that.)

I have not used my Case much, and have not "needed" to sharpen it yet. (Yes. I should carry it more.)
I tend to agree that the primary benifit is appearance.

From watching 'FORGED IN FIRE' the process of making good Damascus wth no delaminations, cracks, etc. is time consuming, at the very least. Especially for the "fancy" paterns such as feather, ladder, star, twist, and other not random patterns.
 
afishhunter said:
When I was a lad (many, many moons ago)
Click to expand...
Probably around the time this thread was started before being raised from the dead this morning, yes?

jamesculver said:
There always seems to be mystery behind Damascus steel and knives. I've looked into the process of making the steel and the layers, minimum 300 folds, that create this very durable metal. The metal is forged from 1095 and 15N20. My understanding is that the swirls seen on the blade is the different metals that were forged together and come out after an acid etching. Damascus steel knives seem to bring a premium. Are these knives worth the cost? I don't see any of the knife makers on the forum talk or make Damascus steel knives. Is the process to time consuming? What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...

This is just the most bizarre post. This thread was from three years ago. There's no minimum number of folds to make pattern-welded damascus. I suppose two layers would still technically be pattern-welded. The layer count for damascus is based on the number of times it's folded (although if you use multiple billets of damascus to make a single billet, i.e. reversing Turkish twist layers or something) then you would just add together the number of layers from each of the smaller billets to get the total layer count. Some patterns kind of defy the ability to count layers, though, and higher layer count is not inherently superior. Damascus is not inherently more durable than any other steel. Assuming the layers all weld properly, its characteristics will basically be an amalgamation of the steels used to make it, which also don't have to be 1095 and 15N20, although that is a common combination, certainly. Typically you would pick the steels for contrast, with one being higher in carbon and one being higher in nickel so that after acid etch you get a bright (higher nickel) and a dark layer (higher carbon). Although there is also stainless damascus, and from Damasteel you even get powder metallurgy damascus.

Damascus steel knives bring a premium because although there is not a performance advantage compared to the base steels, it is obviously more time-consuming to make a damascus blade instead of a monosteel blade. If the maker didn't forge his or her own damascus, well, then the extra time is accounted for in the maker's steel cost. This is purely aesthetic, and whether it's worth the cost depends on your preferences entirely. Lots of knife makers on the forum talk about and make damascus knives. Lots.
 
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