Damascus Quality?

TripleB67

TripleB67

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Jan 28, 2016
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How do you determine the quality of a Damascus blade on a specific knife?

One of the two knives I'm considering as my new EDC purchase is the Civivi Button Lock Elementum II Flipper Carbon Fiber / G10 handle with the Damascus blade. The only spec on the blade I see is "Blade Hardness 58-60HRC."

The other knife I'm considering, the Civivi Baby Banter 2 TG edition, comes with the 14C28N blade that has the same listed blade hardness as the Damascus blade.

But I'm not sure how to compare the quality of these two blades.

Thank you for helping me out with this information (that probably everyone except me knows)!

TripleB

civivi-button-lock-elementum-ii-pocket-knife-twill-carbon-fiber-overlay-on-black-g10-handle-296-damascus-blade-c18062pb-ds1-982959_800x.jpg
civivi-baby-banter-2-tg-thumb-stud-crossbar-lock-knife-milled-green-red-g10-handle-234-satin-finished-14c28n-blade-c24074-1-includes-1pc-steel-tweezers-toothpic-551844_800x.jpg
 
DMG said:
That isnt real Damascus and they both will be ok steel but not great.
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How does it differ from "real" Damascus? Does it wear off / wear down quicker, doesn't cut as well, doesn't hold an edge as well, etc?

So the two blades in these knives are basically of the same quality?

Thanks!

TripleB67
 
Much with damascus rides on your trust of the maker and the maker's transparency about sourcing, components, and manufacturing. You can make damascus out of random car parts or steels that are considered marginal or undesirable in cutlery.

The best way to decide about it is to look and see if the maker is up front about what the component steels are, what the target hardness is, and where the steel is sourced from.

With the Civivi knives I doubt the damascus is super high quality, but in their defense, I also think it's appropriate quality to the price point.

There's not 'real' and 'fake' damascus with the exception of possible etching or lasering a monosteel to look like damascus. There's just damascus made well or made poorly out of good raw ingredients or the most inexpensive ones possible.
 
TripleB67 said:
How does it differ from "real" Damascus? Does it wear off / wear down quicker, doesn't cut as well, doesn't hold an edge as well, etc?

So the two blades in these knives are basically of the same quality?

Thanks!

TripleB67
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Well as far as I know, it is real Damascus. There are just varying degrees depending on quality and company. Pakistani Damascus is basically 2 pot metals mixed together, whereas Civivi makes decent quality stuff at a good price.

Damasteel and damacore are specific types of Damascus that are proprietary to a certain company and generally are much better looking and definitely use high end steels, but are overpriced in my opinion. Thats when you really get into the realm of pocket jewelry.
 
Isn't Civivi's damascus 10Cr15MoV based? Not sure what the other steel is, but I recall that was the spec at least some of their Damascus knives referred to. If so, it's pretty much Chinese VG-10, great bang for the buck by Damascus standards.
 
Civivi uses the same Damascus supplier as WE, just not the better quality. That's not to say it's bad, it's not, and some, as on my Synergy 3, is very nice. The random pattern on the Trailblazer XL isn't as pretty, but it cuts nicely, and that's all that matters.
 
The damascus knife has a VG10 core so will perform like a VG10 knife. 14C28N will have much higher toughness and a little more corrosion resistance, but a bit less edge retention.
 
Damascus can be as good as the steels that are used to make it. With any well known manufacturer you will be fine. You buy Damascus steel mainly because of the way it looks, the same way you may buy a knife with a beautiful bone/stag/wood handle, when Micarta will be cheaper and tougher.
 
Synov said:
The damascus knife has a VG10 core so will perform like a VG10 knife. 14C28N will have much higher toughness and a little more corrosion resistance, but a bit less edge retention.
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To the OP,
Yes, VG-10 is an excellent cutlery steel.

The issue I’ve found is many Chinese manufacturers say it is named composite or grade of steel & many times it is not be said steel.

It may be a decent steel for the price point though for an exercise in price difference look up this Damascus maker.


https://nicholsdamascus.com/
 
TripleB67 said:
How does it differ from "real" Damascus? Does it wear off / wear down quicker, doesn't cut as well, doesn't hold an edge as well, etc?

So the two blades in these knives are basically of the same quality?

Thanks!

TripleB67
Click to expand...

First, don't get hung up on the definition of "Damascus". The historical stuff is lost to time. Now the term just refers to pattern-welded, layered, or cladded steel combinations (sometimes including decorative layers of metals like nickel or copper in the cladding). I take "real" to mean that as opposed to stuff that is laser-etched or whatever to look like it. Civivi and the other quality or reputable Chinese manufacturers use the real stuff in that context, although there are different combinations of steels used depending on the company and model. Not many companies disclose exactly what they are using and I wish more would.

WE thankfully does. The model in question uses a cored or cladded Damascus with 10Cr15CoMoV in the center. (They have other models that use a coreless Damascus that is just alternating layers of 9Cr18MoV and 10Cr15CoMoV.) As others have shared, 10Cr15CoMoV is the same recipe as VG-10 but made in China. I have a bunch of knives from Civivi and other quality Chinese brands that use 10Cr15CoMoV on its own as a regular blade steel. It's a decent "budget" or ingot steel and honestly, you'd be hard-pressed to tell those apart from Spyderco knives in VG-10 (beyond the differences in blade geometry on whichever knives). There might be differences in the way that Damascus is treated or processed so I can't tell you that the core of that Damascus will behave exactly the same. Just know that it's a decent material at the edge and Civivi (WE) generally does a decent job. In any case, it'll perform exceptionally well for a material that is essentially made to look cool.

Meanwhile, 14C28N is another good "budget" or ingort steel. Civivi (WE) does a decent heat treatment on it. Compared to regular 10Cr15CoMoV, 14C28N gets a little less edge retention but is tougher and more stainless. Neither is hard to sharpen but 14C28N is easier and strops up nicely. Really, I'd just choose whichever design you like better.
 
Chronovore said:
Really, I'd just choose whichever design you like better.
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I greatly appreciate everyone's help and taking the time to explain about the various types of Damascus without making me feel like I asked a dumb question. And thanks for going the extra mile and explaining how the two blades of these knives compare to one another. You have definitely made me a much smarter knife enthusiast.

As far as which knife I'm going with, the smarter choice for my needs is probably the Baby Banter 2 TG. Mainly because I wear a lot of athletic shorts and the smaller/lighter knife makes more sense...plus the toothpick/tweezers add a twist to my normal EDC knives. But then again, I'm a sucker for a flipper - my Cryo feels too heavy for shorts and my OSO Sweet just doesn't have the pizazz of the Elementum 2 Damascus - so this flipper is enticing.

But again, I can't thank you enough for enlightening me on Damascus blades!!!

TripleB67
 
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The Damascus steel on the Elementum is fine for most utility work and looks more expensive than it cost.
If you do go with that one, just don't expect any exotic patterns in the steel.

I have the older version button lock that locks in the closed position, and the blade drops open when you press the button.

I also have a Baby Banter, read the specs carefully, it really is a baby (small):)

civivi.jpg
 
I have the Elementum II with the "Damascus" steel and the gold shred carbon fiber. I wanted a fancy version since I like the Elementum II so much. The layered combo of the 9cr and 10cr may not be fancy Damasteel but it also doesn't cost what a folder made with Damasteel would cost. I should carry that one more often.
 
the civivi damascus lookin steel aint that bad. ive used it for awhile was fine for most daily cutting tasks. easy to keep sharp and held edge good enough considering what it is......it wouldnt scare me away from a knife I liked. I wouldnt pay a hefty premium for it either though.
 
TripleB67 said:
I greatly appreciate everyone's help and taking the time to explain about the various types of Damascus without making me feel like I asked a dumb question. And thanks for going the extra mile and explaining how the two blades of these knives compare to one another. You have definitely made me a much smarter knife enthusiast.

As far as which knife I'm going with, the smarter choice for my needs is probably the Baby Banter 2 TG. Mainly because I wear a lot of athletic shorts and the smaller/lighter knife makes more sense...plus the toothpick/tweezers add a twist to my normal EDC knives. But then again, I'm a sucker for a flipper - my Cryo feels too heavy for shorts and my OSO Sweet just doesn't have the pizazz of the Elementum 2 Damascus - so this flipper is enticing.

But again, I can't thank you enough for enlightening me on Damascus blades!!!

TripleB67
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You are very welcome!

I like the idea of including the Swiss Army Knife style of extra implements. The extra corrosion resistance of 14C28N might also be helpful if you are working out and sweating in those athletic shorts.

Based on the other knives you mentioned, are you an old school Kershaw fan? If so, 14C28N might have historical relevance. It was developed by Sandvik at Kershaw's request. It was an improvement on their 13C26, which Kershaw used to use in a lot of models twenty years ago.
 
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