damascus question

jdm61

itinerant metal pounder
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Messages
47,357
I am getting ramped up to try making damascus for the first time and I had a question about patterning. I know that for simple patterning like ladder and birdseye, you can either cut the billet and forge it flat or press/forge the pattern into the billet and grind away the high spots. I have been told that the advantage of forging and grinding is that the pattern goes all the way through the billet. My question is do you really have to press 1/3 of the way through on each side and lose 2/3 of your billet in order to get the pattern or could you press a bit shallower and maybe only lose 1/2? I have seen where some smiths get a "woodgrain" pattern in their random billets by smacking it a bit with a ball peen hammer and then grinding the billet/blade flat.
 
Joe, its been my expierience that yes you do have to press that far.. or thereabouts. I like to keep an eye on the edge( in the example of ladder) and as long as you can see the whole "thickness" undulate your good. as you probably know if you dont see movement throughout the thickness you will be able to "grind out" the pattern in the middle. Asfor your dies, a wider ladder will get it done easier with less grinding , but not much to the pattern. A tighter ladder will look more impressive, but you'll have to go deeper to get the pattern throughout. Hope this makes sense.

Shawn
 
Joe, I took some quick pics :

Ladder Dies
2009_02020018.jpg
[/IMG]
Billet
2009_02020019.jpg
[/IMG]
Blade
2009_01290122.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Joe,

The reason you have to press 1/3 from each side is so that you expose enough layers once it's ground down to give you the pattern. If you look at Shawn's picture above, you can see the layers on the side of the billet. Imagine what the surface will look like when the humps are ground off. Instead of a flat layer being ground off, you're grinding off multiple layers, some of which are almost vertical at the point of grinding.

You get the same effect with the stock removal method of a ladder. You expose layers in the cut, and the stretch it out so that it shows on the surface. The difference is that if you grind down below the bottom of your "cut", you hit straight laminate and loose the laddering.

The thing you have to remember about a lot of damascus, especially ladder-type patterns, is that what gives you the pattern is exposing interior layers at the surface.

I really need to draw some pictures for this...

-d
 
I have a couple of videos (Ed Caffrey and J.D. Smith) where they use the cutting method. I understand withthat method you have to cut pretty deep because otherwise, you could end up grinding away the pattern. Shawn, what did you make your dies from? It looks like you didn't have to press as deep as I thought you had to to get the pattern. Thats what I was talking about. It looks like you still have 40-50% of the billet left after pressing.
 
The reason I didn't put anything in my videos on pressing in patterns is because of all the waste. Generally with a pressed in pattern you can expect to loose 1/2 to 2/3 of the billet to grinding. On the up side, if you press the pattern in at least 1/3 from each side, the pattern will go all the way through and will not get ground out. Its up to each individual to choose the route they want to take, but I no longer press patterns in...simply because I cannot afford to waste all that material.

Patterning basic damascus generally falls into one of two categories:

1. Stock removal patterns: pool and eye, ladder, quilt, etc., where you are removing material to create the pattern. This type is best forged closely to finished shape/size, and minimum grinding done. This type of manipulation can be "ground out" if you grind too much after forging.

2. Mechanical patterns: twists, folds, jellyroll, etc., where you physically manipulate the entire billet to create a pattern. This requires more forethought and it helps if you can do what I call "think in the fourth dimension"...meaning being able to imagine what is going on in the interior of the billet when you manipulate it in a specific manner. These type of pattern creations cannot be ground out, because the pattern goes all the way through the billet. There will be subtle differences as you grind deeper, but the pattern will not be erased by too much grinding.

Both of these differ from Mosaics in that "thinking in the fourth dimension" takes on a whole new aspect when you dealing with multiples of of the same or varying billets in making mosaics.

Its a logical progression for an individual to start with stock removal patterns, then go into mechanical patterns, then maybe composites... and when you've mastered those, a whole new adventure awaits with Mosaics.

Its what keeps it so interesting and challenging....and of course just down right fun.
 
The reason I didn't put anything in my videos on pressing in patterns is because of all the waste. Generally with a pressed in pattern you can expect to loose 1/2 to 2/3 of the billet to grinding. On the up side, if you press the pattern in at least 1/3 from each side, the pattern will go all the way through and will not get ground out. Its up to each individual to choose the route they want to take, but I no longer press patterns in...simply because I cannot afford to waste all that material.

Patterning basic damascus generally falls into one of two categories:

1. Stock removal patterns: pool and eye, ladder, quilt, etc., where you are removing material to create the pattern. This type is best forged closely to finished shape/size, and minimum grinding done. This type of manipulation can be "ground out" if you grind too much after forging.

2. Mechanical patterns: twists, folds, jellyroll, etc., where you physically manipulate the entire billet to create a pattern. This requires more forethought and it helps if you can do what I call "think in the fourth dimension"...meaning being able to imagine what is going on in the interior of the billet when you manipulate it in a specific manner. These type of pattern creations cannot be ground out, because the pattern goes all the way through the billet. There will be subtle differences as you grind deeper, but the pattern will not be erased by too much grinding. I know some of those patterns require you to accordion cut the billet, so I guess that kinda counts as mosaic.

Both of these differ from Mosaics in that "thinking in the fourth dimension" takes on a whole new aspect when you dealing with multiples of of the same or varying billets in making mosaics.

Its a logical progression for an individual to start with stock removal patterns, then go into mechanical patterns, then maybe composites... and when you've mastered those, a whole new adventure awaits with Mosaics.

Its what keeps it so interesting and challenging....and of course just down right fun.
Love your video, Ed. The only concern I have about grinding patterns is with ladder. I worry that if I want to do a very tight pattern, the chances of either the pattern "washing out" or not being able to get it as tight as I would like would be greater if I mill the ladders. I like a lot of the mosaic stuff that I see, but my real interest is in seeing how many different crazy variations you can get using the crushed W technique.
 
The advantage of cutting the ladder in a stock removal ladder pattern is, once you cut out the Vee's from each side, you can re-use the cutout Vee's for canned damascus, thus not wasting nearly as much. The disadvantage as stated earlier is that the pattern can be ground away.
 
The advantage of cutting the ladder in a stock removal ladder pattern is, once you cut out the Vee's from each side, you can re-use the cutout Vee's for canned damascus, thus not wasting nearly as much. The disadvantage as stated earlier is that the pattern can be ground away.
How do you actually cut out the V's? In the two videos that I have, they are milled out with ball end mills, which, of course, leaves lots of chips and twisty bits as opposed to usable chunks.
 
Joe, My dies are made from a gear rack I happened to find in a scrap yard. It is only about 1 1/4 wide so I cut and welded 2 pcs side by side top and bottom. As for the grinding, you do have to go a little past the bottom of the grooves to get the pattern "clean". I will be shortening the length of these dies too, as they are now the idea was to press as much of the billet as possible, but with the billet being ~3/8 thick(or thin) it cools off too fast when it hits the dies, thus needing more heats to get the depth I want ultimately being counter productive. I think with the dies shorter, biting less length of the billet will be faster. I no it sounds wrong, but a 2" x 3/8 by 6" bite trying to turn into a wave is not easy even w/ 24 tons.

Shawn
 
but my real interest is in seeing how many different crazy variations you can get using the crushed W technique.

Nobody I know of has explored W's more than Joel Davis. Check his table at Blade out if he's back this year...

-d
 
I don't like the look of the stock removal technique, and other than being able to re-use the cutouts, you lose about the same amount of material.
 
Nobody I know of has explored W's more than Joel Davis. Check his table at Blade out if he's back this year...

-d
True. You could probably say the nobody else in his age group has explored most things about damascus as much as he has.
 
Back
Top