Damascus sorting the good from the bad

[7thID (L)]

I'm new to this forum, but I've read many of super interesting and highly educational posts in the past. So I was at a gunshow...yeah I know a lot of hard luck stories start out with that line ...and I picked up a "Damascus" knife from a guy I've seen there in the past. It was pretty cheap- $80 and I was wondering how can a new guy like me can spot crap blades from the good ones beside price? I know the key reason these knives are much cheaper than the hand made ones from local Smiths are that all of them are imported from Pakistan, where it seems a tidal wave of Damascus is flooding EBay from Pakistani dealers. What do you all think of these knives in general? They seem to be good quality, they sharpen well and seem to hold an edge. My main concern is the blade brittleness. Thoughts?

 

[marcinek]

Welcome. If cheap "damascus" is working for you...you feel they are "good quality"...then stick with it.

The way to spot good, real damascus is like this...Think of a Rolex. A cheap Rolex is....not a Rolex. If a fake Rolex does what you need it to do, then swell.

So. Is the damascus you are looking at cheap? Then...not damascus. It's pattern etched mystery steel from Pakistan.

 

[marcinek]

Oh. And is pattern etched mystery steel from Pakistan brittle? I don't know. Never bothered to find out. Kinda like saying "Is that egg salad sandwich on the street still good?"

I would go out on a limb and say it's not brittle, but it is soft. Could be way off.

 

[RevDevil]

I'd recommend Devin Thomas, Chad Nichols, Rob Thomas are some of the highest quality Damascus makers there are at this point. There is also Alabama Damascus, which has various patterns, etc. Some of the Gun show Damascus is that low quality stuff from the Middle East, or China. The cheap stuff is not good for much except for a wall hanger. The higher quality stuff will work just fine as a user steel on a knife.

 

[7thID (L)]

I know if I spend several thousand dollars on a knife it is going to beat my $80 gun show buy, I was trying to measure the quality of the Pakistan imports as a stand alone evaluation. Maybe I will upload a picture-that probably makes more sense.

I used the wrong word - the knives I've seen are "inexpensive" if they are cheap-as in poor quality- was what I was after. Just because something doesn't cost $2000 doesn't mean it isn't a good product. Now what defines a "good" knife? I was wondering, given the large amount of knives now coming in from Pakistan, if these knives are any good? Granted I know they are not art, like the makers you mentioned above. The knives may be inexpensive because the guy making makes $1 an hour. What I wanted to learn was, has a real knife expert seen the knives I mentioned and what they thought of them. Shun knives, which cost $500-$800 a William Sonoma are also etched steel so cost is not the defining factor if a knife is good or not. I'm going to look up Alabama Damascus and if it cost me an A-load of $ I'm blaming RevDevil! Thanks all.

 

[marcinek]

I used the wrong word - the knives I've seen are "inexpensive" if they are cheap-as in poor quality- was what I was after. Just because something doesn't cost $2000 doesn't mean it isn't a good product. Now what defines a "good" knife? I was wondering, given the large amount of knives now coming in from Pakistan, if these knives are any good? Granted I know they are not art, like the makers you mentioned above. The knives may be inexpensive because the guy making makes $1 an hour. What I wanted to learn was, has a real knife expert seen the knives I mentioned and what they thought of them.

Do you find them good? Then they are good. I, myself do not find mystery Pakistani steel good. It would seem that many of the members here, who I consider "real knife expert," like RevDevil, feel the same.

Now if the members here are not the "real knife expert" you are looking for, I'm not sure what can be done about that....

 

[evanPGH]

I'd recommend Devin Thomas, Chad Nichols, Rob Thomas are some of the highest quality Damascus makers there are at this point. There is also Alabama Damascus, which has various patterns, etc. Some of the Gun show Damascus is that low quality stuff from the Middle East, or China. The cheap stuff is not good for much except for a wall hanger. The higher quality stuff will work just fine as a user steel on a knife.

All that needs to be said, really.

 

[brownshoe]

I have had three paki knives of regular stainless, none held a decent edge. With damascus, it can be great steel...but it all depends upon the maker of the steel and the heat treater. None of this is known for paki damscus. Don't buy any knife if you can't know/trust the manufacturer of the steel.

 

[Scurvy092]

Simple.

Just ask the guy who made the damascus. If it's from a reputable person and the guy is a reputable dealer, he should know and be able to tell you quickly. If he doesn't know or hims and haws, just walk away.

If he says he made it himself, ask him if he's a member of the ABS. If he's not, walk away. If he is or claims he is then look him up on their website.

 

[WRGreen]

Yeah, it would be difficult to tell the temper or makeup of anonymous damascus at a show without pissing off the vendor. Maybe discreetly rub it against a ring or wristwatch of known hardness and compare it to the pitch of a known knife? Rude and risky. A solid vendor would have a demo; otherwise, "Caveat Emptor!"

 

[Naja]

I find all of this discussion interesting. I read similar comments on other forums over 6 months ago and decided to do some research. I bought several of these knives from $40.00 to $200.00. I resold them all to friends at my cost on the condition that they used them. (The first time I've ever done this.) These are construction and landscape guys who hunt and fish. I kept the expensive one myself: it is a thing of beauty.

The analysis that has come back, and this is surely not empirical, is that they are pretty good knives. They Handle stress, keep a decent edge, etc. the major drawback is that the prettier and better made they are, the thicker the blades become.
As a result you can't slice very well: this is very apparent in the kitchen knives, Great for chopping but too fat too really slice thin. But damn do they look good on the counter. A great conversation piece because everyone loves folded steel, It's a universal human trait. On the other hand, the knife I used, was outstanding as a birding knife. The extra weight and thickness of the blade actually helped going through joints.

Somebody here stated that it was etched not folded. Not true at all. Not one knife I purchased and resold was etched (23 knives). Knife makers all over the world are buying these blanks as fast as they can get them. The blanks are usually better quality because the width of the blades is thinner but one always needs to check the details.
Finally, in some cases the signed knives are of much higher quality than non-signed. BUT NOT ALWAYS!!!

You really need to study the details before you buy.

I would put the quality and workmanship of some of these knives right up there with all custom makers. Some are better than others. The big difference here is that These people work for 10 cents an hour. You can carry a piece of functioning pocket jewelry. I know I don't carry any other custom knives. The rest of my collection is behind glass or in boxes.

MHO

 

[Phoynix]

You can actually get GOOD Pakistani blades, if you are willing to go over there find a local village smith and buy it directly from him... problem is if its 80 bucks its likely made by kids in a forge sweat shop using uncleaned billets that oddly suffer crappy HT and after some use delamination.

Never owned one personally... you get what you pay for and 80 bucks for a large bowie in Damascus... yeah maybe not going to work out.. Seen alot of guys complaining about crappy temper/edge retention and delamination over the years.
Also seen "SMITHS" selling Pakistani blades on ebay in such a way as suggesting they made them.. and getting 300+ for them....

Also any time someone states they are of questionable quality....... on a forum a new poster shows up to tell you how they tested them and how awesome they are......
Not that im suggesting Naja is such a person.. no doubt they will be posting on these forums for years to come and become a valued member of the community.

 

[Scurvy092]

Also any time someone states they are of questionable quality....... on a forum a new poster shows up to tell you how they tested them and how awesome they are......
Not that im suggesting Naja is such a person.. no doubt they will be posting on these forums for years to come and become a valued member of the community.

Yup, never fails.

Also happens when people start talking about obscure Chinese knife makers that may or may not make knock offs in their spare time.

 

[Grayzer86]

Simple.

Just ask the guy who made the damascus. If it's from a reputable person and the guy is a reputable dealer, he should know and be able to tell you quickly. If he doesn't know or hims and haws, just walk away.

If he says he made it himself, ask him if he's a member of the ABS. If he's not, walk away. If he is or claims he is then look him up on their website.

I don't believe that being a member of the ABS is the only way to ensure good quality knives or steel. There are hundreds of guys in the country making knives that are just as good without being an ABS member. Seems kind of like not going to any doctor who isn't a brain surgeon when all you have is a cold

 

[Scurvy092]

I don't believe that being a member of the ABS is the only way to ensure good quality knives or steel. There are hundreds of guys in the country making knives that are just as good without being an ABS member. Seems kind of like not going to any doctor who isn't a brain surgeon when all you have is a cold

That wasn't really the point. The point was how you can increase your chances or assure that you are getting a quality damascus.

If I walk up to some random person selling damascus that he claims he made, having that membership would put my mind at ease.

Your analogy doesn't apply at all. Your analogy makes it sound like there is very little skill involved in forging your own high quality damascus.

 

[R.c.s]

Damacus was developed in around 300 bc in the middle east . How they did this is not known . The technique they use today is called pattern welding were they get several types of steel and iron slices and welded them together . 300 or more is what is classed as damacus . Boker do a low priced one around 36 . And are nice but for light uses so i would say the more layers the better the blade . I am not an expert this is just something i have read and i mite be rong . Hope it helps

 

[7thID (L)]

Naja,

Thank you for putting some thought into my question unlike some of the other less than helpful answers. Yeah I know if you spend $1000 on a knife its better than an $80 gun show buy what I wanted to know- you have done a wonderful job answering. My two knives are damascus all the way through- not etched, and they hold an edge rather well. I think they probably make better gifts than a working knife because they look really neat and someday I will spend some $ on a real damascus. Very best to you and Happy New Year!

 

[7thID (L)]

R.c.s check this vid out- ever heard of John Neeman? Amazing tool/ knife maker


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3nojb-gFH4

 

[RevDevil]

Naja,

Thank you for putting some thought into my question unlike some of the other less than helpful answers. Yeah I know if you spend $1000 on a knife its better than an $80 gun show buy what I wanted to know- you have done a wonderful job answering. My two knives are damascus all the way through- not etched, and they hold an edge rather well. I think they probably make better gifts than a working knife because they look really neat and someday I will spend some $ on a real damascus. Very best to you and Happy New Year!

Look at the Kershaw Scallion, shallot, Leek, etc in Damascus. That is made from various layers of good carbon steel with layers of stainless mixed in. Beautiful random patterns, and it won't cost you a paycheck. :thumbup:

 

[7thID (L)]

Nice! and no too much $$$