Damascus Steel blades today a fake?

I

Irie2

Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
30
Ive always wanted to own a blade that was damascus steel. After researching the topic ive found that blades sold today as damascus are actually alot of the time "pattern welded".

I was also fascinated by the articles I read about the history of damascus steel. The techniuqe was lost in the late 1700's, and no helpful descriptions of its production were created/preserved.

This article seemed to have some info on how hard it is to produce, in outside appearnce and internal structure.
http://users.ntsource.com/~bluedevil/ Tribune_damascus_steel.htm

Do any blade makers today actually produce damascus steel.. or is all the stuff I see for sale actually hype.

Just curious
 
Welcome to Blade Forums. There are actually some knifemakers here that I have talked to that make true damascus. It might be the wrong time of day for them to see this post though but during the afternoon they are bound to answer all your questions.
 
Thank you for the welcome. Been reading blade forums for awhile. Looks like a good group of folks!
 
It has become a habit that will be harder to break than when I quit smoking. Most of the people on here are really good people but there are a few jacka#@%es and you will find them. But yes this site is almost as addictive as collecting knives and so much cheaper to.
 
Ya thats true of every forum. I'll matain a thickish skin. Thank you for the info.
 
Welcome to Bladeforums! :)

You can do a search for "wootz" or the Russian term "bulat" for a more authentic Damascus. Pattern-welded steel is also legitimately Damascus in the sense used today. It isn't a fake, just a different kind of 'mixed steel'.

Of course, since they are mixes, the actual steels or other metals used determine the characteristics. There are even stainless Damascus steels now, obviously not what they used in the old days.
 
Search for "wootz" and you'll find what you are looking for.

However, characterizing one as "true" and the others as not, isn't a particularly useful distinction.

There was a great deal of variation within wootz blades as well, depending upon the maker, where they were getting their raw materials, and which set of critically important/completely irrelevant techniques they used.

There are a number of makers today who will make you a wootz blade, starting with AchimW here on Bladeforums (wootz@web.de).
 
What I want to know is who originally started saying that only "wootz" is true damascus. Was wootz originally called damascus? Damascus has been the common term for pattern welded steel for around 30 years now, at least.
 
Hey Guys..

Don't even get me started on the topic of Powder Metallurgy Damascus...

:)

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
Pattern welded damascus has been around since before 500 AD. To say that it is not a true damascus is incorrect.

There are quite a few people that make modern day wootz. Al Pendray, Achim Wirtz, Ric Furrer, Greg Obach, Larry Harley, a myriad of Russians, and others.
 
Thanks for the info! Looks like the term "Damascus" is broad and covers a number of different steels. I think I'm going to enjoy doing more research on this.
 
It's best not to use the term 'damascus' since it is used and misused for various things . Most of what we have in knives should be called pattern welded .I'm not even sure what the powder metal one should be called though one maker's name is Damasteel ! Wootz is a very different thing !!!
 
are two more than slightly different methods.

Here is a classification link to help with damascus:

http://home.att.net/~moltenmuse/classificattion.htm

and here is a link to the same site concerning pulad/bulat/wootz:

http://home.att.net/~moltenmuse/Pulad.htm

I was fortunate enough to listen to a lecture and interact with Ann Feuerbach last year at the New England Bladesmith's Guild gathering at Ashokan, NY.

In 2002 she completed her Ph.D. on Crucible Steel in Central Asia: Production, Use and Origins. Her interests are not limited to crucible steel and Damascus steel.

Links, and brief bio liberated from her website. Hope you all find it entertaining and enlightening!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
According to Figiel in "On Damascus Steel" (an authority on Wootz and pattern welded varieties), the term "Damascus steel" has, since antiquity, been used to describe BOTH pattern welded and Wootz steel. He says that it is only relatively recently that people have begun to insist the term "Damascus" be used to describe only Wootz. The implication of the term: 'True Damascus' is somewhat egregious.
Also, the colloquial use of the term Damascus to describe pattern welded products can be shown to be ancient and it remains ubiquitous. I don't think it a blunder if someone calls pattern welding 'Damascus.'

Some of the earliest examples of pattern welded swords date from 500-300 BC (La Tene I) and, according to Oakeshott in "The Archeaology of Weapons" are of excellent quality.
An inspection of some of these examples reveals sophisticated pattern welding techniques (namely the basic composite/separate edge arrangement most often associated with the Vikings) that would still be used for more than 1000 years. To me, this implies that pattern welding predates La Tene I by some time. Frankly, I suspect is was probably in use almost as soon as man began forging iron.
 
JCaswell said:
According to Figiel in "On Damascus Steel" (an authority on Wootz and pattern welded varieties), the term "Damascus steel" has, since antiquity, been used to describe BOTH pattern welded and Wootz steel. He says that it is only relatively recently that people have begun to insist the term "Damascus" be used to describe only Wootz. The implication of the term: 'True Damascus' is somewhat egregious.
Also, the colloquial use of the term Damascus to describe pattern welded products can be shown to be ancient and it remains ubiquitous. I don't think it a blunder if someone calls pattern welding 'Damascus.'

Some of the earliest examples of pattern welded swords date from 500-300 BC (La Tene I) and, according to Oakeshott in "The Archeaology of Weapons" are of excellent quality.
An inspection of some of these examples reveals sophisticated pattern welding techniques (namely the basic composite/separate edge arrangement most often associated with the Vikings) that would still be used for more than 1000 years. To me, this implies that pattern welding predates La Tene I by some time. Frankly, I suspect is was probably in use almost as soon as man began forging iron.
Click to expand...
Hey, someone who agrees with me! I find it somewhat annoying the "authorities" that will call people newbies for referring to pattern welded steel as damascus.
 
Larrin said:
Hey, someone who agrees with me! I find it somewhat annoying the "authorities" that will call people newbies for referring to pattern welded steel as damascus.
Click to expand...

Yes, it doesn't matter to me what terms people prefer. It's just the dogmatic tone often struck regarding this particular point seems a tad excessive considering that the historic use of the term "Damascus steel" was never a technical term to begin with.
Rather, there is evidence that in antiquity it's simply a generic (perhaps purposefully imprecise/simplified) description of any steel displaying a patterned or 'watered' effect after etching (again, according to Fidiel. I believe Sachse makes the same point in "Damascus Steel" as well.)
 
I'm gonna get myself in a peck of trouble for saying this, but when I think of Damascus steel, I think of the swords from the time of the crusades. And the process by which those were made is generally acknowledged to have been lost sometime in the 1700s.

What is made today is patterned steel. We call it damascus and it can be made by several methods. But it is not the same as the damascas steel of hundreds of years ago, because as of today, no one is sure how that was done.

BTW look up "Damascus steel" in wikipedia. Most revealing.
 
knarfeng said:
I'm gonna get myself in a peck of trouble for saying this, but when I think of Damascus steel, I think of the swords from the time of the crusades. And the process by which those were made is generally acknowledged to have been lost sometime in the 1700s.
Click to expand...

You really should read the material on wootz, also known as bulat. This is not pattern welded, it is crucible steel, and it matches the medieval Damascus. Pattern welded steel itself is also ancient.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top