Damascus Steel blades today a fake?

I understand that they matched some of the properties with Wootz. It is not clear to me that they matched all the properties. It could be that they did. Guess I'll have to dig up more articles and see how much of the properties were duplicated.

Well, I did get into trouble. My penance is that now I gotta go look up more references just for my own edification.
 
I bet even in the old days, there was a good bit of variation among the formulas in different areas.

There is some evidence that in the old days, before patents and trademarks, innovation and manufacturing were extremely proprietary, with expertise kept within the clan. When a family died out, or the kids didn't want to follow the old craft, secrets would be lost.
 
I have 2 nice articles in my computer ,one by Verhoeven from a Scientific American article and one by Achim about making Bulat .I don't know a website for them but if you PM me your email I'll send them to you.
 
I think Al Pendray has pretty much nailed the Wootz thing. He and Job were making Wootz 20 years ago.
Besides their obvious successes, some experts said, "not so ... your castings demonstrate only the fine crystalline or granular variety. We don't see the large conglomerate masses of cementite and pearlite that we see in many fine Persian and Indian steels."
So, Al forged some blades with prominent patterns and large planar assemblies or conglomerates of cementite and pearlite.

When I talked with him at a show about this in the mid '90s, he told me the trick was in forging at very low temperature (barely glowing at all, and that visible only in very low light.)
I didn't know it at the time, but he had previously reported this method by which he says he modifies the fine lattice-like structure of his castings to yield the big conglomerate, planar assemblies of cementite.

The mystery of Wootz has been substantially abated, though this remains a mystery to many experts. From what I've seen, the tendency is to report that the situation is actually reversed (that the mystery remains practically unscathed, and very little has been learned.)
 
I have 2 nice articles in my computer ,one by Verhoeven from a Scientific American article and one by Achim about making Bulat .I don't know a website for them but if you PM me your email I'll send them to you.

Thanks mete, I found the Sci Am article on line. But, I would be interested in the other.

Pardon my asking, but, how do I PM you?

Thanks,
Knarfeng
 
Damascus has come to mean two or more very different steels pattern welded together to make a very visible pattern. A christian bladesmith has even put crosses and other religious markings right into the damascus steel. I prefer the more subtle wootz style damascus myself. One of my favorite books is the quicksilver series by Neal Stephenson where the main characters spend alot of time and effort making wootz in 16th century india(they had to boil ALOT of urine) They later traded it in Japan for quicksilver. The author really knew his industrial scale 16th century wootz manufacturing as he goes into great detail(into everything actually this story makes lord of the rings look like a pamphlet).
 
Bladeprince... thank you for the link! Ill check those out. They look nice.

I found a article a couple of days ago about a study that was done comparing samples of steel from historical blades (i think from the 1100-1700ad) range.. with modern steel and found it inferior to todays high grade metal. Ill see if I can find it. Wish i had more specifics. Does anyone know of anyother studies comparing historic blades with modern ones (laminated steel or otherwise)? Just curious to know how they stack up.
 
... a study that was done comparing samples of steel from historical blades (i think from the 1100-1700ad) range.. with modern steel and found it inferior to todays high grade metal.

In all the ancient barbarian movies I've seen, their swords were superior to anything short of a light saber. Just ask Arnold! :D
 
Bladeprince... thank you for the link! Ill check those out. They look nice.

I found a article a couple of days ago about a study that was done comparing samples of steel from historical blades (i think from the 1100-1700ad) range.. with modern steel and found it inferior to todays high grade metal. Ill see if I can find it. Wish i had more specifics. Does anyone know of anyother studies comparing historic blades with modern ones (laminated steel or otherwise)? Just curious to know how they stack up.


There have been two problems pointed out by experts concerning this comparison:

1. Steel age hardens, and that leads to difficult side-by-side performance comparisons, when you can even get to that point, which is rare.

2. With ancient pattern welded steels, you have no knowledge of how much sharpening/changing of original profile has occurred, and the results of sharpening/changed profiles resulted in patterns that were spectacularly different, with as little as 20% of edge material removed, as shown in models in the back of the book "Swords of the Viking Age" by Ian Peirce.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai99.. I was wondering about the ageing effect as well.. didnt know if/how it may affect a compartive study. I think its a valid point. As I recall the study mentioned that the metal was more brittle.. but attributed that to a high carbon content. I for the life of me cant find that artical again.

I think Esav also has a good point about the provintial variation of damascus. Im sure every maker had his own "special blend" that wasnt shared outside their circle and lead to alot of variation.. just like there is alot of variation today.

Well.. ive learned alot from following this! Never heard the term wootz before asking. Thanks eveyone.
 
Knarfeng , I sent you a message......Bladeprince , those Mcusta knives are like the Shun knives and are very fine but are not 'real' damascus since they are made of powder metal !! They look nice and perform very well.
 
Knarfeng , I sent you a message......Bladeprince , those Mcusta knives are like the Shun knives and are very fine but are not 'real' damascus since they are made of powder metal !! They look nice and perform very well.

This brings up an interesting point. I don't know about the knives on that link, but the most well known 'Damascus' made of powdered metal is probably Damasteel.

It was mentioned to me once that they 'blow in' the pattern during the manufacturing process. While this may be true of their less-seen 'mosaic' offering, the traditional patterns (twist, cut and a variety of coined patterns) are actually forged using traditional methods.
They 'assemble' the initial billet with a non-traditional approach-essentially layer upon layer of powder, welded under pressure. After that, it's forged (drawn, twisted, coined, etc) and that is what develops the patters, just like traditional pattern welded material.

http://www.damasteel.biz/production.html

This seems like a relatively simple variation affecting one step of the process ---namely a different method of stacking the initial billet. To me, that wouldn't preclude it from being 'real Damascus' in the colloquial sense. It isn't cheating or pretending to be something it isn't as the idea that it's 'not real', seems to imply.
In my semantic universe "fake" or "not real" Damascus is the etched-on look-alike patterns--the fakes. For me, it is good enough when the pattern is developed by the different constituent alloys which actually make up the bar.
But that is certainly only my take.
 
Modern pattern welded blade contains different types of steel or even nickel. Old pattern welded steel made from monosteel and have this pattern not because layers are made of different steel like today but because carbon content is set differently on surface of the layers.

So nature of pattern is different, initially damascus with different types of steel imitates old blades pattern, but in time it turns into different decoration bussines and not you may have one or other pattern one or other decoration.

However in most cases performance is lower then performance of components - it does not combine best properties unfortunately. Very skilled smith are able to make blade as good as monosteel blade in terms of performance, so only difference is decoration.

In old times pattern was sign of quality and in general side effect of technological process.

The best solution Japanese came from - Suminogashy, when they create laminated blade with monosteel core and damascus sides, so edge is good monosteel (usually it is like Kanetsune - Shirogamy or Aogamy core, G-Sakai - SRS-15, Mcusta - VG-10...).

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Irie2, the damasteel website gives you the methods of making it , but the Shun and Mcusta knives are Japanese made .All I can tell you is that the Shun knives are very well made and the VG-10 is great and as a bonus when you carve the turkey they look at the knife and ask what kind of knife is that and how do they make it !!
 
Modern pattern welded blade contains different types of steel or even nickel. Old pattern welded steel made from monosteel and have this pattern not because layers are made of different steel like today but because carbon content is set differently on surface of the layers.

So nature of pattern is different, initially damascus with different types of steel imitates old blades pattern, but in time it turns into different decoration bussines and not you may have one or other pattern one or other decoration.

I'm not sure which variation you're describing. Classic/ancient pattern welding is the combination of different constituent alloys, namely steel and iron (the difference being primarily carbon content, but that difference goes all the way through. It's not just on the surface.)
Damascus made from monosteel would be Wootz. It is a very different process and is also ancient, but I believe pattern welding is likely older (if that matters at all). Wootz is generally attributed to Indian smiths as early as 200 BC, while there are surviving examples of pattern welding dating from around 500BC, though some experts I've read seem unaware of this fact.
 
I'm not sure which variation you're describing. Classic/ancient pattern welding is the combination of different constituent alloys, namely steel and iron (the difference being primarily carbon content, but that difference goes all the way through. It's not just on the surface.)

As well as I know it was done from same steel and with managing carbon content on the surface of the steel burning it out or enriching it and then folding and folding they create excellent blades - like Top grade katanas from Japam. So it is made from same steel folded many times. In Japan it was made from tamahagane.

I am not aware of adding iron sheets to steel - there is no reason for this for weapons. Agricaltural instruments in Japan are laminated with high quality steel and raw iron - this way they have good edge and keep instrument inexpensive. But for swords etc. I can not imagine one addind iron like this. And doing this in modern damasc way gust make it as bad as raw iron most likely.

Bulat is different story.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Damascus made from monosteel would be Wootz. It is a very different process and is also ancient, but I believe pattern welding is likely older (if that matters at all). Wootz is generally attributed to Indian smiths as early as 200 BC, while there are surviving examples of pattern welding dating from around 500BC, though some experts I've read seem unaware of this fact.

Yes Ann Feuerbakh is defenetly not aware of this. I as understand she mention few credible wootz blades 200AC, or something and not only from India but from Samarkand area also.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
As well as I know it was done from same steel and with managing carbon content on the surface of the steel burning it out or enriching it and then folding and folding they create excellent blades - like Top grade katanas from Japam. So it is made from same steel folded many times. In Japan it was made from tamahagane.

Now I think I know what you're talking about. It is true that Japanese technique involves folding with roughly homogenous material. As I'm sure you know, there are several variations to this too, but it's not my area of interest. Of course I don't think I've heard anyone call Japanese swords 'damascus' either.

The pattern welding people are talking about most often--laminates of differing layers of material being twisted, coined, etc. is extremely ancient. I mentioned earlier the swords found at LaTene dating from 500 to 300 BC, as an example.

A good example of this is the Celtic/heroic/migration/Viking weapons (though the technique was used just about everywhere in one form or another).
There is speculation as to why a smith would use differing grades of material from very high-carbon steel all the way to WI in a weapon. It is thought that they sought to benefit from the impact-resistance of the softer grades mated to the edge-holding of the higher grades (rough high-carbon steel) which might prove too brittle if used solely to make a long weapon.
This, I think, is bolstered by the arrangement of the steels in a typical Viking sword (harder edge welded to a somewhat softer core which is made up of multiple bars of steel twisted with other steel or iron.)

Going back further, Caesar notes in his commentary on the Gaelic wars, that his opponents used very long swords which required frequent straightening during battle. This is the type of behavior one would expect from a long sword made in this fashion.--perhaps hard on the edge, but more likely to bend than break--perhaps a tad too likely to bend if you follow Caesar's implication.

There is the added curiosity that many fine pattern welded swords have been found in burial mounds, etc. that, upon analysis, have proven not to be hardened at all. Some speculate that the sword might have been ritually 'killed' by annealing, but there is a troubling lack of evidence --essentially none that I know of---for that theory.

Regardless, these ancient techniques of weapon making (combining different grades of steel sometimes with iron for whatever reasons) are very similar to what modern makers do today. I, for one, don't use anything but all high-carbon materials in any pattern welded mix for performance and constancy sake, though some folks do. 1095 and 203-E is a good example of a High-carbon mated to a non-heardening material. 203-E is essentially mild steel with nickel.
 
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