Damascus Steel Problem, All and any Adivce Apreciated

H

huntingsgr8

Joined
May 25, 2015
Messages
89
A few years ago I decided to try my hand at making damascus steel, and after rigging up a forge, I successfully managed to weld 3 pieces of medium carbon steel together. I did as I had read to the letter, I cleaned up the pieces, wired them together, put them into the forge until red, applied enough borax along the edges and ends to give it a wet appearance, repeated when it got to a bright orange, then when I saw a few sparks coming from the forge I pulled it out and welded it solid, then allowed it to cool in open air. After it was cool I went to file the edges to examine my welds......but I couldn't. The steel somehow became so hard that even a file refused to bit into it, even after annealing. So I tried again, this time I used mild steel, and 7 layers. It welded at one end, and I ran into the same problem, however where the block had not welded, I was still able to file. Has anyone got a clue as to why this happened? I figure it's worth mentioning that I was using coal at the time too. I haven't tried since and have accumulated the parts for a propane forge, but before I go trying again I figured I'd ask.
 
I am confused how the pieces were "wired" brought up to temp, and the wire remained. I've only seen the metal cleaned up, welded into a stack, then brought to temp, and set with the hammer. Then fluxed for the reheat and refolding.

Never done it myself, but curious how the wire made it through the first step?
 
Sounds like your "mild steel" air hardened. What steel was it and where did it come from?
 
If you could visit someone and watch them make Damascus, you could learn more in five minutes that might take you years to learn on your own.
I was having trouble making Damascus so in 1990 I took the ABS Damascus class at Washington Arkansas. Charles Och was the teacher. All I had to see was the color of the steel when he pulled it from the forge and welded it. That's all it took. Since then I have made lots of Damascus, but without the class I don't know if I ever would have figured it out.
 
Whoops forgot to mention, the back of the billet was welded together, the rest was held by wire which presence was nullified by the welds on the back.
 
Tom Lewis said:
If you could visit someone and watch them make Damascus, you could learn more in five minutes that might take you years to learn on your own.
I was having trouble making Damascus so in 1990 I took the ABS Damascus class at Washington Arkansas. Charles Och was the teacher. All I had to see was the color of the steel when he pulled it from the forge and welded it. That's all it took. Since then I have made lots of Damascus, but without the class I don't know if I ever would have figured it out.
Click to expand...



I've watched just about every video, and read every book I could find on the subject, and as far as I can tell I haven't missed anything. I even talked to an older fella who spent several years as a blacksmith, even he didn't have a clue why. Is it possible that the steel absorbed carbon?
 
Any rapid cooling of the billet by dunking in a bucket of water would harden the billet. Any scale will be very hard. Borax glass on the surface is...well...hard as glass. Even fine pearlite may skate a file.

Soaking the billet in sodium bi-sulfate overnight, rinsing and scrubbing the black sludge off, and them grinding the surface clean on the grinder will usually expose the clean steel of the weld. Any dark lines are usually a bad sign.

I know a lot of folks have read Jim Hrisoulas' book and wire up their billets like he desribes. A far better way is to weld up both ends while the billet is in a vise. If you have the ability, weld the side seams too. Then weld on a sturdy handle.

Borax works, but has a lot of problems....not the least of which are flaming meteors of 2200F glass drops spraying out in all directions.
Hydrocarbon fluxing ( usually kerosene) is a far better method. Most damascus welders who do production work use it now.
With all the seams welded on the sides and ends, a "dry weld" is possible...and works really good. Just grind the sides and ends to remove the weld metal after welding and drawing the billet. Dry welds are done by "ear", and when worked hot enough are usually flawless. On any weld, you will hear a distinct difference between the layered steel stack and the welded billet that is one solid block.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Any rapid cooling of the billet by dunking in a bucket of water would harden the billet. Any scale will be very hard. Borax glass on the surface is...well...hard as glass. Even fine pearlite may skate a file.

Soaking the billet in sodium bi-sulfate overnight, rinsing and scrubbing the black sludge off, and them grinding the surface clean on the grinder will usually expose the clean steel of the weld. Any dark lines are usually a bad sign.

I know a lot of folks have read Jim Hrisoulas' book and wire up their billets like he desribes. A far better way is to weld up both ends while the billet is in a vise. If you have the ability, weld the side seams too. Then weld on a sturdy handle.

Borax works, but has a lot of problems....not the least of which are flaming meteors of 2200F glass drops spraying out in all directions.
Hydrocarbon fluxing ( usually kerosene) is a far better method. Most damascus welders who do production work use it now.
With all the seams welded on the sides and ends, a "dry weld" is possible...and works really good. Just grind the sides and ends to remove the weld metal after welding and drawing the billet. Dry welds are done by "ear", and when worked hot enough are usually flawless. On any weld, you will hear a distinct difference between the layered steel stack and the welded billet that is one solid block.
Click to expand...


The scale is actually the only thing that I was able to remove. I took a grinder to the surface, the welds are clean, and it's not just the edges that are hard, the face is too. It's starting to look like I'm dealing with some form of anomaly:(
 
I'm no expert on damascus in any shape or form, but I have welded a good bit of it up over the years, including wrought iron and mild steel welds. First, I'm 99% sure the metal you used was hot rolled A-36, which is something I've found to be hit or miss for forge welding as it's recycled and basically "wonder what'n hell's in it" metal. I've had more failures with it than success. As far as I know, cold rolled is all 1018 and I've had excellent results with it, though it does have to be hotter than high carbon steel.

The best thing I can suggest is to visit a maker who makes damascus. Bruce Evans taught me more in one visit than I'd have ever learned on my own. I'd been struggling for some time and was making a mess of it till he spent a little time showing me how he did it.

Forget video's, there helpful, but not when looking for colors, what you see in the video is way different than what your seeing in reality. Books likewise are limited, there a great resource, but nothing replaces a few minutes of hand's on. The way I was shown and it "clicked" for me was what Bruce calls "Frontier Damascus", basically take a hunk of high carbon steel and forge weld a slightly smaller piece to the top of it and a smaller on top of it, going up in a pyramid, welding one piece at a time. After you get a stack you draw it out and cut and stack to get your layer count. You alternate say a piece of leaf spring with a hunk of saw blade, then a piece of a file, ect, ect. The main point is that you learn the sound, feel and look of welding. And you can come up with some crazy patterns.
 
Will52100 said:
The best thing I can suggest is to visit a maker who makes damascus. Bruce Evans taught me more in one visit than I'd have ever learned on my own. I'd been struggling for some time and was making a mess of it till he spent a little time showing me how he did it
.
Click to expand...

I'll do my best to find someone, but I think I may have to figure this one out. I'm one of only 3 people I've met in the area who have ever forged in their lifetime, and I'm the only one who's ever attempted damascus.
 
Not sure where to find makers near you, but there should be hammers in's somewhere close by. Kinda expensive, but might be worth it to take the ABS damascus class if all else fails. I've learned a lot from books, but until I actually put my hands on it and do it all the explanations in the world won't make me "get it".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top