Damascus Steel

[JuAln]

Exactly what is Damascus and what makes it better or at least so much more expensive than anything else?

 

[Berkley]

There's an excellent article online in the Sword Forum Magazine that should answer both of your questions.

 

[e_utopia]

Well, for those who don't want to go to outside links (there's always a few), Damascus is steel which is composed of of several different steels, layered and welded together. It may be left as a simple layered effect, or twisted and further deformed to produce interesting patterns. As a blade steel, it varies (depending on which steels are combined to produce it), but generally does not perform as well as the component steels do (although certain combinations have been reported to produce a micro-serrated effect as one steel wears faster than the other). For beauty, though, the only steel I think looks nicer is a blade I saw which was frged from an iron meteorite. To solve this problem, some have made what is called 'San-mai' damascus, where a piece of plain steel (whatever type you prefer) is sandwiched between two pieces of damascus. Except near the edge, the damascus is what is seen, but the edge perfomrs like one made of the inner steel. Also an option is using damascus for parts other than the blade; I'm having a pair of knives made with damascus bolsters.

Damascus is a beautiful material. If you want to buy a knife with a damascus blade, talk to some makers about how much of a performance loss any specific type of damascus is, and decide if it is worthwhile for the added visual appeal. You can also ask if they do san-mai, if that interests you.

--JB

P.S., for a nice example of san-mai, check this out: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001094.html

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 06-26-2000).]

 

[Knife Outlet]

Damascus is expensive because of the manufacturing process which involves forge welding two types of steel. The steels are folded, hammered, folded, hammered etc. to create the pattern. Sometimes the steels are twisted or bundled or combined in different ways to produce different patterns.

Usually the damascus is made from a combination of a soft steel and a hard steel. The hard steel lends superior edge holding while the soft steel lends toughness to the final result. I'm a big fan of damascus and find that it performs beautifully in my damascus knives.

Most damascus products are made from carbon steels (not stainless) although there are stainless damascus products as well. I have a folder that is made from Damasteel (stainless damascus) and it also performs quite well. It happens to be my single favorite folder. Take care.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com

 

[fisk]

Yes, damascus is two different steels forged welded together. That is hot hard work. Sometimes you also lose some of your work due to blisters etc. that also drives the time involved up, and cost. All of this makes it more expensive.
Howsomever. Damascus is not hard and soft layers when finished. No longer than by the end of the second weld the hardness is the same for both steels unless pure nickel is involved. Carbon will not migrate through pure nickel. Useage of 15N20, a carbon steel with nickel added will work fine.
The only time when using the san-mai process with damascus is more of an advantage is when using something like damascus will pure nickel,as it does not harden or again with something like meteroite steels which again does not perform well by itself.
The performance of the damascus depends upon the smith making it. If he used the right combo of steels and if he knows how to get the best heat treat and tempering it will perform very well. It will perform as good as any carbon steel if he did it right.
jf

 

[Walt Welch]

e_utopia said:

Well, for those who don't want to go to outside links (there's always a few), Damascus is steel which is composed of of several different steels, layered and welded together.

Fred said:

Damascus is expensive because of the manufacturing process which involves forge welding two types of steel.

fisk said:

Yes, damascus is two different steels forged welded together.

Gentlemen, you may wish to go to the above referenced source and read it. You will discover that while you are correct that pattern welded steel is today commonly (but incorrectly) called
'Damascus,' true Damascus steel is NOT pattern welded. It is forged from a homogeneous cake of steel called 'wootz.' Here is a good source on the secrets of wootz Damascus manufacture, and why these were lost: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

Walt

 

[HJK]

?
I don't think I'm likely to try to tell Jerry Fisk anything about forging damascus, Wootz or otherwise. But I have heard lots of conflicting claims about the wootz process and its performance. It usually seems to be shrouded in mystery, which always makes me suspicious. I know H. Roselli is making "wootz" puukos and if I remember correctly there was someone in Eastern Europe who was claiming to have a lock on the REAL process. Anyone have hands on experience with wootz damascus and how it performs?

 

[Walt Welch]

HJK; the wootz Damascus process has three separate parts all of which must work together. The ore must have trace amounts of carbide formers, you have to know how to use the closed crucible wootz process, and the forger (wootz cakes were usually made in India, forging often done in Damascus, which was also distribution point for finished blades) has to know exactly how to forge it for the pattern growth to occur.

Hands on experience by the thousands during the Crusades, where many an European knight paid a lot of gold for a good Damascus blade. They were widely regarded as the best there was at the time (outside of Japan).

Walt

 

[HJK]

Thanks, Walt. I did recall something about the legendary blades the Crusaders envied and treasured when they got their hands on them.
So who out there today is making wootz? Is it genuine or comparable to the old material? How do these modern blades perform?
If Jerry Fisk is still out there, do you have an opinion on Wootz? Obviously your input would be great to hear.