Damascus steel

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Mar 10, 2009
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Hey im doing a school project on the advantages of damascus steel compaired to normal tool steel and mild steel.I was also wondering about what the strongest combanation of steels that could be possibley used is and how and why this would be a better choice than normal tool steels.
thanx
 
I'm new to this, but I have been reading about it for a couple years now and I like to think I've absorbed a bit of information.
I'm afraid you will probably find that damascus (the modern steels called damascus should actually be called pattern welded steel) is not really "better" than normal tool steels. It is made by welding layers of different types of steel together, and some claim that this creates a kind of saw tooth action at the microscopic level. However I have found multiple trusted sources that prove that because the carbon in the steel migrates so easily most pattern welded steel has the same carbon content and hardness throughout.
Pattern welding is for looks only.

Now if you were talking about the legendary "damascus wootz" steel from history you would actually be looking at a type of crucible steel (steel melted in a type of pot with high amounts of carbon added). It has alloy banding (frowned upon in modern steels) that produces a beautiful pattern when properly worked. This steel may or may not have been "better" than other contemporary steels, but I believe it is safe to say that most if not all modern tool steels could beat it in any test.
 
Seconding just about everything Barnett said, but I'll also add: mild steel? really? that isn't appropriate for knifemaking in any way, and won't harden.
 
barnett25, forgive me for butting in but I thought I would help watch your back for a moment. You are correct in what you are saying, but the way it can be read prompts me to help out a little in clarifying what you were saying before you draw the fire of many who are passionate about some of these topics.

Damascus (and now I risk drawing fire, but I am building the case for just calling any of it “damascus steel” since many of the reasons not to are based on dubious information), is not really better or worse than singular high carbon or tool steel, it is just “different”.

Thank you for pointing out the carbon thing, as it is very much true that the carbon will diffuse and equalize very quickly under normal circumstances of folding and welding. The alloying characteristics of the individual steel layers will however remain. Carbon atoms are very small compared to iron and thus can skitter between them very quickly while say chromium or nickel atoms are very much larger and cannot move between the iron atoms like carbon. Because fo this one can build up alternating layers of different abrasion resistance, not necessarily hardness based upon carbon content. Thus while for the most part pattern welding is really for looks, one must also admit that it is “different” from mono-steel. I like to say that damascus doesn’t stay sharper longer than normal steel, but it does go dull in a different way. Due to differences in abrasion resistance damascus tends to get ragged or toothier, like a saw, as it wears at the edge, thus it will continue to tear through soft fibrous targets aggressively while a steel that wore more smoothly will not, therefore it has the appearance of holding a better edge but is just wearing differently for specific targets. This ragged toothy effect is not so great in push cuts and would be rather distressing on a razor if not kept polished.

Ancient crucible steels behaved in much the same way but relied upon heavy carbide networks, not necessarily alloy banding, but carbide banding surrounded by a soft iron matrix. This allowed blades made from it to cut soft targets really well and stay keen due to the really hard carbides while still being ductile to some degree due to the bulk of soft iron. Ric Furrer likes to say “imagine diamonds in pudding” but I like to give the soft parts a little more strength and call it “diamonds on Play-do”. This is not to say that alloying didn’t play a role in the carbide segregation, and the principles of how the networks got there in the ingot cooling phase are the same but if one doesn’t take time to identify the differences between wootz and modern steel with nasty banding, well issues can arise;)

I also do not think that either material would stand much a chance in strength tests against modern tool steels, but in other tests involving cutting or some ductile behavior while perhaps not better once again both may be “different”.

Tuesday, your question on the “best” combination will get you just this side of 1,000 different answers with none being correct while at the same time none being wrong either. However you did give us a key to zeroing in on some better answers with your use of the word “strongest”. In terms of strength the best combination would involve two steels of higher carbon content with heat treating requirements that are almost identical, this would allow you to get a more homogenous hardness range resulting in a steel that would have the most resistance to deformation in strength tests such as tensile for example.
 
Thanks for watching my back Kevin. :)
With my oversimplification I thought I was in big trouble when I saw your name on the thread...:D
 
Thanks for watching my back Kevin. :)
With my oversimplification I thought I was in big trouble when I saw your name on the thread...:D

Phew... I thought you were toast too. Good go!

Tuesday: What kind of school project are you doing? What grade level? Is it an essay or research paper, or are you doing a science project, or...???
 
Thanx all. Its a grade 10 sciance project for an expo but i chose the topic primarily because i am interested in knife making. The main amount of reserch is about the effects that the different layers produced as apposed to one solid layer when the steel was under stress. For example if i took a damascus combination of a high carbon and crome content tool steel and a slightley lower carbon content steel would it be better than those 2 steels tested individualy?
 
Barnett,
I have to say this is the FIRST time I have read a post by someone who starts out "I'm new to this, but" and it was actually pretty spot on.
Kudos to you for doing some reading first!:thumbup:;)
Mace
 
Tuesday,

The first thing I would recommend is some good reading on the subject of metallurgy. Dr. John Verhoeven has published a great book that covers most aspects of metallurgy that apply to knife making. http://www.feine-klingen.de/PDFs/verhoeven.pdf
You can also get a lot of good information from Kevin Cashen's great posts stickied at the top of this forum (however that my be harder to cite for your project).

I'm afraid you may find your chosen topic to be a bit more advanced than it would seem on the surface. You will first need to determine what makes a steel "better" for knife making, and that's something you can't even get the experts to completely agree on. Then you will need to look at exactly what happens when you pattern weld steel. There is carbon migration that occurs very quickly in most cases (see Verhoeven's book for more on this), this basically evens out the carbon content throughout the steel. Alloys, as Kevin has mentioned, migrate much more slowly. This factor will provide most of the differences between plain steel and pattern welded steel.

You may also need to look at steel at the molecular level to see how different heat-treating techniques affect the properties of the blade. This is probably the most fascinating aspect of steel, and you will find a lot of good information on this in both Kevin's posts and Verhoeven's text. You may even find that your project might have a bit more impact if you focused just on this subject. I personally think it is very cool that you can get a machinable steel, a spring, a glass hard knife, and many other properties from the same piece of steel just by changing the rate of cooling.

Good luck with your research, I hope you have as much fun learning about knife making as I have so far!
 
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Mace,

Thank you for the complement. I hope to start doing some hands-on work soon, but with a baby on the way this summer I may end up doing a lot more reading before I make my first blade.
 
I'm definitely not an expert by any means, but one thing that may relate to your project (depending on how you define "Damascus") is the technique of forge welding multiple types of steels with varying carbon content in a jacket-and-core-steel sandwich method (I'm referencing The craft of the Japanese Sword on Pages 77-80). Kapp states that the lower carbon steel, or core steel, is more ductile and helps protect the blade from cracking or breaking under stress.

Kapp also suggests on page 77 that folding the steel many times over (which I would call Damascus even though it is not of different types of steels), takes out the impurities out of the steel. However, I can't explain the performance difference between this method and a differential heat treat.

It is also possible (no referenced material) that smiths used core steel as a cheap alternative since it may have been more readily accessible and the core wasn't as important as the high carbon "jacket". But I don't know that. Either way, it is a project I am working on playing with to make my own blade using this method. I plan to fold each steel a few times over (~10x) and then forge weld them together. If I were to fold them after the weld, I would expect to see what Kevin described of the steels equalizing... thus diminishing the desired effect.
 
You must remember that in the past the smelters where far cruder than the present. They had much more difficulty controlling the carbon content and the impurity in the steel. With damascus they could add and subtract to get the properties they wished. Then it was superior. Todays tool steel smelters use induction heat and vacuum chambers and the alloy content is much more controllable. Very hard to compete with that and the amount of control they can now have. Interestingly though that some of the very best steel is still forge welded. CPM steels are melted in such furnaces and then sprayed to form small particles, these particles all have very uniform content. The particles are gathered and basically forge welded into a solid billet of very uniform alloy.
 
There are a few distinct differences from modern pattern welding and ancient techniques of bloomery steel consolidation. In terms of improving the metal the modern technique is indeed much more a matter of pure aesthetics, while the ancient techniques were necessary in order to make the inhomogenous crumbly mass of iron and steel useable. The real misconception that has held on since Victorian times is that the forging and welding process was to put carbon into the bloomery metal, in fact if you work with the material you quickly find that much of the operation is to remove excess carbon or to distribute it evenly. Many inclusions and unwanted things are worked down and drawn out into the length of the billet to minimize their effects, but voids and cold shuts are the most important things to deal with (you don’t know what steel blisters are until you start folding bloomery steel.

Very thick sections require much more time for the carbon diffusion to equalize throughout so one can do three part laminates or jackets over cores without totally loosing the differing carbon levels, but when you start folding the repeated high heat combined with the increasingly thinning layers result in total diffusion in short order, this is why it worked so well for homogenizing the bloom.

Tuesday, if you would like something of mine you can reference, here is an article I wrote for “Sword Forum Magazine Online” ten years ago on the topic you are researching: http://swordforum.com/forge/roadtodamascus.html
 
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