Damascus=Stronger?

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Gassyerik911

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Jul 6, 2012
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Hey guys I've been wondering, does a Damascus blade make the blade itself stronger or is it just for looks? And if you have any Damascus blades pictures would be highly appreciated:)
 
Ancient damascus? With its carbon nanotubes and whatnot, maybe sometimes. Modern damascus? That depends on the types of steels used in the pattern and the single steel you're comparing it against. Modern damascus is primarily for looks and illustrative of top-flight craftsmanship. It's absolutely painstaking to manufacture. I can't imagine any artisan damascus actually out-toughing a modern super steel, though (unless, i guess, it's made out of those super steels itself).
 
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Damascus was invented to increase the strength of steels produced with very primitive technology. Our steel technology produces very good steels that are monolithic, no need for damascus other than style.

Now there are advantages to laminating different types of steel so that the cutting edge is one alloy and the sides of the blade are another alloy, but this strictly speaking is not the same as damascus.
 
Hauling said:
I didn't claim it to be fact chief.
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But you said it? I think he is just correcting your statement.

Gassyerik911 said:
Hey guys I've been wondering, does a Damascus blade make the blade itself stronger or is it just for looks? And if you have any Damascus blades pictures would be highly appreciated:)
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I would venture to say that damascuc is not any stronger than any of the modern steels.
 
Wow, it's amazing how many misconceptions still exist about "Damascus" steel. To the OP, modern Damascus is better referred to as pattern-welded steel. The original Damascus was known as wootz steel, and had properties that still are not completely understood. Pattern-welded steel was developed to blend the properties of early low- and high-carbon steels to arrive at a blade that was both tough and strong. Layers of different steels were repeatedly hammer-forged together, folded over, and re-forged (obviously not a coating). Modern steels have made Damascus pretty much obsolete as a path to a superior blade. The technique is now more often a showpiece of the blade maker's skill, thus the proliferation of intricate patterns and acid etching.
 
Hauling said:
I said I'd imagine..it is a coating on the blade is it not. ok.
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Well, you imagine wrong. It's not a coating. It's called pattern welding. Modern damascus is the result of two steels welded together and etched so that there is a contrast between the two steels. The contrast is however only on the surface but is not a coating just like a patina is not a coating like DLC.

Oh and the other guy was correcting a statement you made, however you qualified it. As I am.
 
Argh. So much misinformation here. :o Here's a repost of what I've said on other discussions on this topic.

FortyTwoBlades said:
There are two kinds of steel commonly referred to as "damascus" steel: wootz and pattern welded. Pattern welded steel is the most commonly seen but is not "true" damascus, and the patterning is the result of (usually contrasting) layers of steel being forge-welded. This method was used commonly in east Asia to compensate for the uneven distribution of carbon in the ingots resulting from their smelting process, and was a post-smelting method to homogenize the steel. Different grades of steel would then often be sandwiched to give specific regions of the blade varying degrees of hardness to balance toughness and edge retention. This method was used in Europe primarily before the (medieval) discovery of "modern" smelting techniques for ore extraction, and allowed small pieces of ore to be combined to form a larger mass. With the development of better smelting techniques virtually every edged tool was switched to monosteel as it was no longer necessary and could, in fact, potentially cause weaknesses in a blade as a result of imperfect welds. Today the technique is used only because of its cosmetic properties.

Wootz steel or "true damascus" is not folded, and gets its patterning from carbide banding. Wootz was originally made from ore found in some select Indian mines which contained trace carbide-forming elements. When smelted and worked in a particular way, carbides would form in distinctive patterns during heat treatment. Wootz steel exhibited superior toughness and edge retention for its day, but is now far outclassed by modern steels in terms of performance.
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And if I might add, (IMHO) Modern Damascus in addition to looking beautiful, can be a VERY good steal, and suitable for EDC. Maybe it's not up to the super steels, but each batch is made in small quantities, and nearly every batch is different so there is rarely statistically significant testing of modern Damascus. I rotate a Stainless Damascus Mnadi, S35 Large Sebenza, S30V small Sebenza and assorted benchmades, spyderco's and Kershaws for everyday tasks, depending on what I think my needs might be.

This particular Damascus uses 304 (as I recall) stainless as one of the steels and AEB-L which is a Swedish razor blade steel as the other alloy.
The Mnandi might not be up to the super steels (or maybe it is) but it ain't bad.

IMAG0337.jpg
 
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bdmicarta said:
Damascus was invented to increase the strength of steels produced with very primitive technology. Our steel technology produces very good steels that are monolithic, no need for damascus other than style
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Yep. It looks great, but that's it really.
 
There is some research that shows wootz to be better at edge holding than modern steels, when the modern steels are tempered down to the same hardness as the wootz (HRc 41-42). However, with modern heat treatments, it's a different story.

Another reason for pattern welding steel was to get a piece big enough to make a sword or knife from. Steel was precious and difficult to make, and single pieces large enough for a sword or large knife were rare.
 
Gassyerik911 said:
Hey guys I've been wondering, does a Damascus blade make the blade itself stronger or is it just for looks? And if you have any Damascus blades pictures would be highly appreciated:)
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There was a long thread on this topic fairly recently.
 
me2 said:
Another reason for pattern welding steel was to get a piece big enough to make a sword or knife from. Steel was precious and difficult to make, and single pieces large enough for a sword or large knife were rare.
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Never thought of this angle. Very intetesting, thanks.
 
bdmicarta said:
Now there are advantages to laminating different types of steel so that the cutting edge is one alloy and the sides of the blade are another alloy, but this strictly speaking is not the same as damascus.
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Fallkniven actually posts their break test data for their laminated blades on their website.
 
I use high carbon Damascus on a lot of my folders, I wouldn't say its a super steel I also wouldn't say it just for looks either. 1095 Damascus is very tough and durable steel and it's easy to sharpen.
 
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