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Damascus

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bubbajimmy

Joined
Mar 31, 2001
Messages
3
Most of the steel I see being touted as Damascus is kind of funny and cheap looking. I don't think it is being made by folding and hammering carbon steel into hundreds of layers to develop the strength imparted by lamination. It looks more like a poorly mixed alloy or carbon that has been ground away to form a pretty pattern with no real strength added by the process.
I saw a Boker super liner with a damascus blade made by Manfred Sachse. The hammered layers, 330 of them were very tightly formed, and I could feel the ridges formed by the layers with my thumb nail. It was not a flat surface with a pattern in it like a lot of the crap on the market.
If somebody is selling you Damascus take a second look and ask a few questions.
Regards,
bubbajimmy
 
You obviously have never been acquainted with Devin Thomas, Robert Eggerling, George Werth, Ed Caffrey, Conny Perrson, Cliff Parker, Al Pendray, Hugh Bartrug, Bill Fiorini, Dave Anders, Rick Dunkerly, Tim Hancock, Jeff Harkins, Darrel Ralph, Jerry Fisk...I'm getting tired...anyone care to pick up where I left off?

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I know nothing about Damascus steel, but I do remember hearing a long time ago, that the actual art of making true Damascus was lost centuries ago. That the knowledge to produce the same quality of steel as the original has not been rediscovered yet, and the modern Damascus is nowhere close to being the same quality. Is this true, or have I been mislead?
 
The thing you must keep in mind about the "true" damascus, which now a days is called "Wootz" steel, is that in it's day, it was so superior because nothing else came close. There was bronze and lightly carburize iron, and several other things being used as blade material, and when wootz showed up on the scene, it just blew everything else away!
One thing that will give you some idea of how well the modern damascus blades perform is to go to americanbladesmith.com and take a look at the requirements for passing the American Bladesmith Society Mastersmith rating. The test taken alone, is not a big deal, but for a bladesmith to create single blade that will do all of them, is a testiment to the knowledge and skill of those who create modern damascus blades.

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Ed Caffrey "The Montana Bladesmith"
ABS Mastersmith
www.caffreyknives.com
 
The search for Damascus steel is most easily accomplished by using the 'Search' button above.
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Just search for 'Wootz'. This will yield several threads, among them one which has a hyperlink to the article where the authors describe the process of making wootz steel, and also there is a reference for the patent granted to them. Go HERE

Ed Caffrey doesn't make wootz, but he makes some incredible pattern welded steel, which is what most people mean by 'Damascus' today. Here is a pic of a knife Ed made for my daughter; the pattern is called 'spiders 'n snakes'. Scales are paua shell. She loves the knife; pretty enough for her to have it on her desk (she is an executive), yet strong enough to cut whatever needs cutting.

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Hope this helps, Walt
 
Wootz is a pretty old term too. Perhaps as old as damascus (named after the infamous city.) I think there are two basic types of damascus being made today. One is for looks and it contains steel and nickel forge welded together. The other is for performance and it has two different types of steel forge welded together. The latter type actually makes a very nice looking and good performing knife blade. There are some fine examples from skilled knifemakers as you have read above and there are even some effective machine made damascus steels. Strangely, there is also stainless damascus such as damasteel that is used by some knifemakers. It actually performs pretty well too. I admit that I own a damasteel bladed Elishewitz folder that I actually carry and use. It works just fine, thank you. I carry several Case damascus bladed pocket knives (machine made) from time to time and I like the way they perform as well. So, whatever you call it, what really matters is how it is made and from what. Personally, I prefer a good damascus blade to any other. Maybe that helps date me.
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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
bubbajimmy

Modern pattern welded steel, if done right, is as good as any and better’n most. (Putting on flame proof underwear) Dogman gets a gold star for his list. Bill Fiorini thought a class a couple of years ago I attended. His stuff is amazing and will cut like there is no tomorrow.

Darrel Ralph, from out side Renoldsburg, also has really good pattern welded. I have one of Darrel’s small Apogees with his “unfolded” steel. Looks good, cuts better.

I also have a couple of couple of custom fixed blades in pattern welded by a Georgia ‘smith, Fred King. One field dressed two deer and was still sharp enough to shave with.

Along with a couple of Boker folders.
(Does it seem like I like the stuff?)

Here is a pic of the Apogee.



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Dwight

It's a fine line between "a hobby" and "mental illness".
 
A couple things -- in a quite recent issue of either Blade or TK -- was an article showing the 5 knives Josh Smith used to take his MS rating with. All damasus, all gorgeous. All able to bend 90 degrees and return to true. "Nuff said about that.

Also, there is a lot of "mosaic" damascus being made. Pictures are being "painted" with steel. I've no idea whether mosaic has the same performance characteristics of most of the other damascus we see, but it seems possible it might not. It is primarily used in art knives and gents folders.

Bubbajimmy, I think you tried to paint with too broad a brush.


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Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
Thanks for your comments. I've been away from the computer for a few days. I do tend to take a wide swipe at things sometimes.
I got a lot of food feedback, though and found out more about damascus than I've been able to get out of my subscription to Blade. What about SanMai. I've got a Cold Steel Master Tanto with the machine folded two metals blade. Would that be considered a form damascus as well?
I guess what bothers me is the pattern steel being called dacascus. It seems to be a misnomer. And I think everyones got to admit, you're not getting much in a lot of pattern steel that's for sale, especially when you see it for $29. It's like stealing from from the men, many named above who are doing the really good work.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bugs3x:
A couple things -- in a quite recent issue of either Blade or TK -- was an article showing the 5 knives Josh Smith used to take his MS rating with. All damasus, all gorgeous. All able to bend 90 degrees and return to true. "Nuff said about that.

Also, there is a lot of "mosaic" damascus being made. Pictures are being "painted" with steel. I've no idea whether mosaic has the same performance characteristics of most of the other damascus we see, but it seems possible it might not. It is primarily used in art knives and gents folders.

Bubbajimmy, I think you tried to paint with too broad a brush.


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bubba and Bugs
Both Josh Smith and his mentor Rick Dunkerly passed there MS ratings with "mosaic" damascus. The pictures that are painted in the steel "are" the steel. If done right mosaic damascus will flex 90 deg and straighten. It takes attention to detail and good welding procedures.
Mosaic patturn welded high carbon steel opens a whole new posibilities in weld paturns for knife blades without patturning it like ladder or raindrop. The patturn is not put into the steel but is the steel itself. This allows you to carry the patturn right to the blade edge and not have just a picture in a frame on the blade itself.
As far as price goes just watch what it takes to make a billet mosaic damascus sometimes and you will realize that the price is very reasonable. Just consider that you may start with two or three two pound billets. You may after 20 hours of forging and manipulating those billets have enough to make a 4 inch folder blade and bolsters. The rest ends up as so much rubble on the shop floor. So just in labour alone you may have $200.00 into a 7 inch chunk of steel.

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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html

[This message has been edited by R Dockrell (edited 04-06-2001).]
 
Bubbajimmy said:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I guess what bothers me is the pattern steel being called dacascus.</font>
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Yup, that 'dacascus' just doesn't seem right.
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You also wonder about San Mai. Do a search on this topic, and you will turn up forty (40) threads. Happy searching.

Walt
 
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