Dark Ops knives

vjb.knife said:
I don't have a dark ops but I do have an Extrema Ratio Faida which is the us named version of the Nemesis. It is an extremely heavy duty and very large back lock knife. I don't know that I will ever use it for much but it is certainly very well made, although quite expensive. When it locks up it is like a fixed blade. I have thought about getting the dark ops model like it to compare them. I can get the Dark Ops Stratofighter Stilleto which is similar in design for about $190 which is a lot less than the ER Faida. If I do get one I will put some comparison shots up here between them.

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Very cool!

Nice watch, BTW. I'm not that familiar with the brand, but the band reminds me of MTM. Smokin! :) :)
 
Doesn't Ontario license it's designs from RAT? The Ontario knives even bare the RAT name on the look-a-likes. A company purchasing a licence from another to make a certain design has nothing in common with one company stealing ther design of another. On the Ontario website, they said RAT and Ontario had collaborated on the design, which sounds like an even closer relationship then licensing.

So unless DO worked out an agreement with ER it's pretty clear that it's a knock-off. Regardless of the quality of the knock-off, a knock-off is a knock-off. Why is there no lawsuit? Maybe they did purchase the design and just don't want that information to be public?
 
Gong said:
Doesn't Ontario license it's designs from RAT? The Ontario knives even bare the RAT name on the look-a-likes. A company purchasing a licence from another to make a certain design has nothing in common with one company stealing ther design of another. On the Ontario website, they said RAT and Ontario had collaborated on the design, which sounds like an even closer relationship then licensing.

So unless DO worked out an agreement with ER it's pretty clear that it's a knock-off. Regardless of the quality of the knock-off, a knock-off is a knock-off. Why is there no lawsuit? Maybe they did purchase the design and just don't want that information to be public?
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This is exactly why I concentrate on the knives and not the politics or legal issues between these companies. When you invoke words like, "thief", or "stealing", you're making an accusation that may or may not have a basis in fact. I'm not part of their legal staff, and neither are you or anyone else on this forum. There are many explanations for why there either ARE or ARE NOT issues - legal or otherwise - and whether or not those issues are made public. I'm not privy to their communications, back and forth, so I don't even speculate.

Ever seen the BM 710? Lots of knock-offs. Heck, there are some out there that look just like my Fallkniven NL3, but maybe with a few styling tweaks. I don't get wound up about it.
 
Always seemed to me a reason the Dark Ops stuff got so blown out of proportion had to do with the fact that the actual knives were so hard to find. Several people expressed interest in trying one to see how good/bad they actually were only to find they were backordered or otherwise unavailable everywhere. Good that you got one and tried it.
 
MassMatt said:
Always seemed to me a reason the Dark Ops stuff got so blown out of proportion had to do with the fact that the actual knives were so hard to find. Several people expressed interest in trying one to see how good/bad they actually were only to find they were backordered or otherwise unavailable everywhere. Good that you got one and tried it.
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Yeah, I also heard they attended a knife show, after a big promotion, and then didn't have any knives to show. They're not that hard to find, now, but some seem to be perpetually back ordered, like the covert tanto. The vendor who sold me the Stratofighter said he can't keep them in stock. In fact, he sometimes doesn't even put certain models on his web page, but reserves them for people who ask for them, specifically.
 
Halbie said:
Nice watch, BTW. I'm not that familiar with the brand, but the band reminds me of MTM. Smokin! :) :)
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Kobold Watch, Co. is in Pittsburgh near where I live. They are all mechanical automatic Swiss movements with cases made in Germany. Very accurate, reliable and from a great company to deal with. They greatly outclass the MTM watches. This one is a titanium cased model called the Phantom.

http://www.koboldwatch.com/
 
vjb.knife said:
Kobold Watch, Co. is in Pittsburgh near where I live. They are all mechanical automatic Swiss movements with cases made in Germany. Very accurate, reliable and from a great company to deal with. They greatly outclass the MTM watches. This one is a titanium cased model called the Phantom.

http://www.koboldwatch.com/
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Thanks. I'll look 'em up!

By the prices, I guess they would outclass MTM! But, price isn't everything.

(I also collect watches)
 
Gong said:
Doesn't Ontario license it's designs from RAT? The Ontario knives even bare the RAT name on the look-a-likes. A company purchasing a licence from another to make a certain design has nothing in common with one company stealing ther design of another. On the Ontario website, they said RAT and Ontario had collaborated on the design, which sounds like an even closer relationship then licensing.

So unless DO worked out an agreement with ER it's pretty clear that it's a knock-off. Regardless of the quality of the knock-off, a knock-off is a knock-off. Why is there no lawsuit? Maybe they did purchase the design and just don't want that information to be public?
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Ontario use to be contracted to make knives for RAT that agreement anded. And RAT sent then notices to quit using the rat name and no longer produce any of those models. Ontario ignored this and kept making the knives without the permission of RAT that is why there is a problem. There is more i left out i am sure. What Ontario is doing is far worse then this situation.
 
KenM K said:
Ontario use to be contracted to make knives for RAT that agreement anded. And RAT sent then notices to quit using the rat name and no longer produce any of those models. Ontario ignored this and kept making the knives without the permission of RAT that is why there is a problem. There is more i left out i am sure. What Ontario is doing is far worse then this situation.
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That certainly changes things then hehe! I still don't care b/c I've been making knock-off Ontarios in my basement for years :D
 
KenM K said:
Ontario use to be contracted to make knives for RAT that agreement anded. And RAT sent then notices to quit using the rat name and no longer produce any of those models. Ontario ignored this and kept making the knives without the permission of RAT that is why there is a problem. There is more i left out i am sure. What Ontario is doing is far worse then this situation.
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Are you an intellectual property rights attorney? Have you read the licensing contract between Ontario and RAT? If you can't answer yes to both questions, then you really aren't qualified to give an opinion on this one way or another.
 
i just looked at their FB's, not really my thing. i can't speak for their quality or business ethics, but the designs (to me) just scream, "i wanna be a ninja when i grow up"
 
chuckschilling said:
Are you an intellectual property rights attorney? Have you read the licensing contract between Ontario and RAT? If you can't answer yes to both questions, then you really aren't qualified to give an opinion on this one way or another.
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I have read letters sent from RAT attorneys and letters from Ontario attorneys. They are easy to find if you look so i did not state my "opinion". And believing you need to be an attorney to understand a contract is just foolish.
 
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KenM K said:
I have read letters sent from RAT attorneys and letters from Ontario attorneys. They are easy to find if you look so i did not state my "opinion". And believing you need to be an attorney to understand a contract is just foolish.
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Do you know how much legal weight attorneys' correspondence has? None. Zero. Nada. Believing that letters between attorneys provides one with a serious and comprehensive knowledge of a case is what is foolish. Moreover, it's NOT just about what is in the contract as regards the legal use of trademarks, despite what you might think. There is very specific, technical intellectual property law that is also involved in a case like this, and only a fool would believe that a layman could enter such murky waters without any experience and correctly interpret the law.

If, as you claim, the situation is so open and shut, black and white, how is it that Ontario continues to use the R.A.T. trade name without impedance? How is it that Rat Cutlery has not obtained an injunction against Ontario if the law and facts are so clear cut and obvious?

I know that it's human nature to root for the little guy, the underdog, etc. etc. in disputes like this - but that has nothing to do with the adjudication of contract and intellectual property disputes. You might do well just to keep an open mind and consider that Ontario may very well have every right to continue to sell cutlery under the R.A.T. name. Moreover, it's not up to you, nor me, nor anyone not sitting on a judicial bench to decide.
 
Without delving into politics, I will say that the Dark Ops pieces I've seen (we tried carrying some at the shop for a while) were very well made with solid locks and pretty decent one-handed opening for a back lock. The pieces were severely overbuilt for most purposes (sharpened crowbar-esque) and the handles were made more for ogre mits, not my puny hands, but they were very solid and nice quality pieces. They were simply way over the top for our kind of customers, as well as ourselves, and once they all sold we didn't get any more.

No problems with the knives at all, just the kind of design. I, too, don't like their marketing, but that has nothing to do with it.
 
thanks for all the responses guys. i was never wanting to buy one, just curious on the quality of them. thanks again!
 
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