DarkOps StratoFighter lock strength test

Forget the lockbacks and go to a compression lock or axis lock.

I looked into a dark ops knife...I mean, if they are hypothetically vindicated from here on out, and they might very well be, I'm still not paying 200+ dollars for one, which is the price I'm seeing (but you guys might have it cheaper). My para's got my back for sure. For a little over a hundred.
 
if the idea is to stress the lock, you need to either stand on the end of the handle instead of right near the pivot, or hang progressively heavier weights from the handle, maybe bounce the weights or jump on it. This would replicate heavy prying action. If you are going to pry with a knife, you dont choke up on the knife, you grab it at the back for superior leverage. This is the force that is definately NOT being applied to your folder. Even in cold steel's videos they put more stress on the locks of their inferior zytel handled lockbacks than you did by standing there. putting weight on the end of the handle increases the leverage substantially. I know If I pry with a knife I will put more than my body weight on the blade, I will bounce on it, and when prying up, stress the knife from the back with more than my body weight.

As QS said earlier, Everyone was in agreement thinking That Dark Ops knives would be of high quality, almost a given considering they "borrowed" the designs directly from ER. The objection was to the absurd and plainly stupid ad campaign designed to attract people who like hype and want to feel badass. Only once people got them in their hand did the poor quality control become appearant. So far your knife is the exception and not the rule. So really, until a bunch of satisfied dork Ops owners chime in with their uber tactical knife success stories, this knife will be viewed as the one that the factory actually made right.
 
"if the idea is to stress the lock, you need to either stand on the end of the handle instead of right near the pivot,"

See above, I was on the handle by at least three inches, unless I was standing on my toes like a ballerina, which I can't do, especially in sneakers.:D

"I know If I pry with a knife I will put more than my body weight on the blade, I will bounce on it"

I won't be doing that with any folder, more power to you for thinking you will. Oh, have you ever bounced on a folder as you describe above?, would anyone?

"this knife will be viewed as the one that the factory actually made right."

Thats a stretch of an assumption on your part isn't it? Or do you really believe that only the ones you have knowledge of are in the public domain?

QC has been discussed already. EVERY company has QC issues. Look at Benchmades products. They had a run of one design for over six months where every commander failed spinewhack tests due to improper mating surfaces on the locks.

You seem to be holding Frank and DOK to some higher level than any other company for some reason. That could be construed as bias, no wait, it CAN be construed as bias on your part after your snide reference to the company name. :D

Robin Brown
 
brownie0486 said:
"with the way the look and the adverts and the semi-spooky name, they are just a joke."

I suggest you also take the folding knife in your pocket at this moment and go perform your own testing similiar to the two tests I have subjected this knife to. Put up your own review of yours up for everyone to see, with pictures, as proof and IF it does not survive like this one did, rethink who may actually own a POS.


Robin Brown
Click to expand...

LOL. Whatever.

I buy a knife to use as a knife. I carry a Benchmade. It's a much better knife than your Dark Ops heap.

I'm not going to go perform a retarded test where I stand on my knife. That's stupid. Did you buy your knife to perform like a step ladder? What about a Crowbar? Or maybe a railroad spike?

Mine locks up great, cuts great, and I have no want or need to pry with it, stand on it, throw it, do pull ups on it, or split logs. Sounds like you want an Axe/Hammer/Ladder/Sword-Tool. Enjoy it. :D

Also, learn how to properly use the quote button. ;)
 
In regards to torque you want to look at the force applied times the distance from the piviot, so your result will be in units of (in.lbs). In the following picture :

http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?postid=5233450

In looks like the force is being applied through the toes next to the piviot so the distance is small, possible an inch or less. In the other ones it shows you holding onto the top of the blocks :

http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?postid=5233446

With almost no effort at all you can reduce the weight on the knife to half your bodyweight and you would not feel any strain in your arms. I had this problem when doing stands, you try it on a scale and lean onto the top of a chair and watch the reading on the scale.

Thus the torque applied to the knife in the above standing could be as low as 100 in.lbs. This is actually a really low standard for lock strength. In comparison, there are 1000 in.lbs folders on the market. I think the Rolling lock was the first of this kind.

If you hang from it you don't need to be concerned about the balance and can easily apply your full weight and thus you can put maybe ~600 in.lbs on the lock. This is a decent medium strength test for heavier locks. It still isn't extreme though, as noted they get twice as strong.

The real issue prying wise is side loading, this will snap the blade on a lot of folders readily and damage the piviots on others, the ER Fulcrum is really strong here, I assume the Dark Ops ones would be similar. Turn it sideways and hang from it.

It is too bad they started with the deainmation nonsense, it will take a long while for people to move past that. They should have just started with work like the above including live demonstrations at blade along with work down to show the cutting ability, edge retention, ease of sharpening, etc. .

-Cliff
 
The test set-up seems kind of bizarre to me. Was the test deisnged so the maker can make the claim "you can stand on my blade without lock failure." Why not just put the thing in a vise, or even use the cement block set up but hang weights off the lanyard hole? That's the Cold Steel test. You could then compare it to their product.
 
"In looks like the force is being applied through the toes next to the piviot so the distance is small, possible an inch or less. In the other ones it shows you holding onto the top of the blocks :"

The ball of the foot was 2.5-2.7 inches on the handle and thats where the bulk of the weight was, not the toes. I'm not sure how many can stand on their toes unless they are ballerinas, which I'm not.

I used the blocks as balance as I stood on the knife for 3-5 seconds three times while the photos were taken, and wasn't just up and back down on the handle. The test is what it is.

"With almost no effort at all you can reduce the weight on the knife to half your bodyweight and you would not feel any strain in your arms"

The lateral stress test on the pivot is in the other thread.

I agree some weight can be taken off by the arms, but not half, or even close to half as I was only holding the blocks for balance with no weight on them. The blocks were too high to exert any real weight on the top of them thereby reducing the weight any considerable measure.

"In comparison, there are 1000 in.lbs folders on the market."

My Chinook is rated for something like that, and the lock is not as beefy as the Strato. The test shows weight applied and having held. Others contentions are that the lock can't be relied on to not release under load. In that regard, I think the test proves differently, at least on this one.

As I'm not Cold Steel, or have their resources and equipment for such tests, this test was performed with what was readily available to me [ cinder blocks to hold the knife blade and my weight ].

The test was not undertaken to compare this knife to any others on the market. If you would like a "comparison", I think you should get yourself those two products and have at it, then report your results.

"Was the test deisnged so the maker can make the claim "you can stand on my blade without lock failure."

Frank did not know I would be testing the knife as I did. It was my idea and done with what I had to work with here at the house. I don't have 600 pounds of weights hanging around here to hang them off the knife, nor am I about to go buy any.

The test is what it is. It proves some things and leaves other questions still to be answered as Cliff mentions.

Edited to add: I just took the bathroom scale, placed the ball of my foot on it dressed as I was during the lock strength test and leaned both hands on the wall for balance only. The scale measures 199.5 pounds.

I then did the same test twice and balanced myself with the top of the cabinet with both hands about the same height similiar to the testing at the cinder blocks, for balance only and the scale registered 179, and 181 respectively. It takes weight off, but it looks like no more than 10% on the scale.

Robin Brown
 
I'm not sure we should necessarily make the big connection between the size or "beefyness" of the parts in the lock and its reliability....the axis and compression locks are estremely small, in comparison, and yet....
 
You know what?

Who cares if you can stand on a knife?

Who cares if you can stab it into a car door?

Can you put lipstick on with it? What about roast hot dogs? Can you paint with it? How about can you do some wood trim finishing with it? Is it great at vaccuuming your car?

Use your knife as a cutting tool not as a hammer/axe/ladder/dumbell/tractor/pickup truck/easy chair

LOL :D
 
My 2 cents... I have had an E.R MPC for a few years now. It hasn't been used all that much. It is cool looking IMO, It's strong. I really don't think I'll break it. I don't use it much because I bought something obsolete before thinking about it much (impulse buying)...Again this is just my thoughts on this but when I need a knife 10 or so inches long for hard use, I grab a fixed blade. I have to say I'm not a big fan of the cross lock. When I was getting aquainted with it the cross lock engaged and cosequently I couldn't open the knife...IMMEDIATE FAILURE, Sure I could take the cross lock off, but for now I'll just take a fixed blade.

In my opinion if it's a folder then it should be treated like it could fold! :)


I like the thread by the way, It encouraged me to get the MPC out and compare with the Strider, Buck Strider, and Spyderco PM...kind of a knife convention :)

Rick
 
brownshoe said:
The test set-up seems kind of bizarre to me.
Click to expand...

It isn't simply a stand test, it isn't the specific situation which is important but what it implies. If I use a knife to whittle on birch flooring and talk about cutting ability and edge retention this can be important to people who don't cut birch flooring or even wood as you can deduce general performance from it.

brownie0486 said:
I'm not sure how many can stand on their toes unless they are ballerinas, which I'm not.
Click to expand...

In your picture you are doing just that :

http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?postid=5233450

The weight is on your toes which is right next to the piviot. To be clear, I didn't need to see the pictures, if you say you did it, that is fine with me. I have read nothing in any of your posts which says anything other than straightfoward commentary so your word is good enough for me. I am just addressing the use of the pictures as part of the arguement as they don't support your commentary well.

This is a problem I have found and with video it is even worse. I took a video this weekend of some batoning to show what I feel are the three broad types and from watching the video it doesn't look at all representative, mainly as I didn't get sound (camera limitation). I was batoning fairly hard (medium) but it didn't look that way in the video without the impacts, plus the light was off so you could not see the grain of the wood.

I agree some weight can be taken off by the arms, but not half, or even close to half as I was only holding the blocks for balance with no weight on them.
Click to expand...

Again, no arguement from me, but the pictures don't show that. From this one :

http://www.glocktalk.com/attachment.php?postid=5233446

You could easily cut the load in half with no effort because your shoulders are aligned to easily take the strain. Again I am not saying you did this, just what the pictures "prove". Any normal person can support a large fraction of their bodyweight with both arms, if you are anyway active you can even do it with just one.

Again just to clarify, I have no doubt the knife could take your full weight if you applied it right to the end of the handle. Interesting work, you should send it to Frank and see if they can't put up some work like this on the website, plus the review you wrote.

-Cliff
 
Brownie, it doesn't surprise me that a 1/4" thick lockback could support your weight, I'd expect the ER folders to do it, so naturally I'd expect the Dark Ops knives to as well, which brings me nicely to my main problems with Dark Ops.

Unlike you, I cannot ignore a few things that for me, and apparently others, are truly deal breakers and make it impossible for me to ever take them seriously or buy one, even if they turn out to be good knives.

First, how do you explain away that Dark Ops clearly stole ER's designs, it is theft, plain and simple, if other companies do it, it doesn't excuse it, and I would say that in the case of Dark Ops, I have never seen a more obvious theft of another company's design, and when you add to the mix that Frank worked for ER, well, come on Brownie, please. :rolleyes: I would love to see you pose a sensible argument that Dark Ops did nothing wrong with regard to their using (stealing) ER's designs. Yeah, I know the nothing new under the sun routine, and that lots of companies use the Walker lock without paying for it, but I just can't see any way you can say, or in this case, type with a straight face and defend what Dark Ops is doing to ER with regard to ER's designs. Unless ER freely gave their designs to Dark Ops to use, then Dark Ops and those who own and run it are absolute scumbags in my opinion and you can stand on the knife till the cows come home and it won't change that.

And then there is the insulting, and potentially harmful advertising that is so over the top, it gives that phrase new meaning. Yes, other companies have done things similar, but no company I'm aware of has ever really risen to the truly incredible drivel that Dark Ops is spewing all over the place. I find their marketing profoundly insulting, as anybody with half a brain does, and I also see it as something an anti gun/knife congressman could take advantage of and use if he were trying to enact some sort of anti-weapon legislation.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter to me how good the knife is, and I still believe that they do have serious QC issues anyway, but, even if they were all perfect, I just can't reward a company like Dark Ops with my business, I don't like thieves, nor do I like dishonest and highly manipulative marketing and Dark ops is just soooooooo guilty on both counts.

Brownie, I'm sorry to say this, because I have generally liked you from your posts, but you have attached yourself to something you shouldn't have and if you have any sense, you'll break free while you still can. Frank's behavior has shown that he doesn't deserve your or anybody's friendship, would you knowingly defend and befriend a thief? Unfortunately, I believe you have done just that.
 
Megalobyte:

I can find nothing you have said in post thats not true and agree with your observations.

I am not sure I have attached myself to DOK in objectively testing and reporting the results I had with the StratoFighter, but I suppose one could make a case for that observation.

I drive my wifes VW ocassionally, but do not like their position on not supporting our efforts in Iraq. I buy French bread and don't appreciate their efforts to thwart our efforts over there as well.

From others experiences, it seems DOK does have some QC issues, though mine seems to be devoid of any problems so far. Nothing earth shattering as I've bought others products for twice that price point from established companies that have the same issues with QC and should not.

If ER had taken suggestions and upgraded their line, I may never have purchased a DOK to begin with. I like the ER line, but they really need to address a few issues from users which they have been unwilling to do to date.

I appreciate your observations and comments here sir, as you certainly bring valid and objective points to the table without any apparent emotionalism attached.

I really like that vid of yours, LMAO, stay sharp

Robin Brown
 
After reading so much speculation and opinion about Dark Ops, it's good to see knives in production and being put to the test in the real world. I enjoyed your review, Brownie.

I don't have a clue what patent and intellectual property law is like regarding knives. However I think a 'knife' just generally is such a simple tool, and a very old one at that, that the only time it's fair to say that something is a 'rip-off' or 'knock-off' is when it's nothing more than a copy made to fool people into believing they're buying something else. You build a better mousetrap, perhaps very similar but superior to the other guy's, brand it as your own, and put it on the market.... that's Capitalism 101.

I don't see where Dark Ops has copied a proprietary lock or opening device, or a trademarked logo or name. And just because certain style and design elements are similar to another line of knives.... hey it's not like we're talking about some sort of advanced mechanism with thousands of hours design engineering, intended to provide some new, unique type of operation. Blade, handle; grasp in hand and cut - the rest is just variation on that simple theme.

As for Dark Ops promo.... to me it's just like using buxom babes to sell beer. Some people object to it, some people (like me) find it all entertaining even though it doesn't have any influence on my buying anything, and then some people may just notice a product because of it. I've got no idea if Dark Ops advertising is working.... however I do think they're getting feedback from knife enthusiasts, the people maybe most likely to be buying knives in this price range, and that feedback might be suggesting that their advertising isn't having the desired effect.

For me it's hard to know what to think of a knife that's really a pure fighter, which I think this obviously is.... even if the name weren't enough to convince me, the handle design and (to lesser extent) blade steel rule it out as a serious choice for all around utility. Even with a background in martial arts and weaponcraft I just don't have any need for this kind of knife. But again some people like them and maybe find them suitable for whatever they're going to do.

Will look forward to more reports from the field, which is what really matters. Thanks again.
 
I personally will NOT buy a Dark Ops folder, for many reasons that have been stated.
 
Extrema Ratio MPC:

BP388.jpg


Dark ops something or other:

2.jpg
 
Artfully Martial:

Thank you for your time in presenting the two pictures. :cool:

TheKnifeCollector:

So it's safe to assume you won't be buying one anytime soon right? BTW--Do you own an ER product presently? If so, what model? If you don't, may I suggest you would not buy a DOK regardless as you do not like that type of design/ergos and size? Would that be a fair statement? :confused:

And, if that is a fair statement, why do you feel the need to interject that you would not buy a DOK product to begin with. Perhaps you should list all the knives that you would not buy and why, so we know exactly where you stand here. Now that we have your definative and last words, we will forever be grateful and fullfilled in our lives from this moment on. :rolleyes:

Why is it you and others seem to want to interject yourselves negatively into this objective test and review anyway? Do you feel threatened that the knife somehow was not a failure which you and others so wanted to happen? I see no reason to interject your interest for or against the product unless it is to make yourself feel better somehow by doing so. :yawn:

If that is truly the case, I do hope you feel better for your stated views.:D

ric0shay:

You don't need to take the crossbolt safety off, just blue loctite it and you can still use it when you might need it without it engaging unknowingly.

Dog of War: You are welcome sir. An objective review and report of the testing seems to be too much to bear for some here. Perhaps if we get 20 more to come into this thread and sing coombiya, or row row row your boat from the highest rafters about the DOK line, they will think the stated obvious in the review will be that much more impressive.

Lets see, how about

"DOK's suck, I wouldn't ever buy one", repeated like row row row your boat by 20 people. Yes, I think that would satisfy everyone who as any passive agressive tendencies toward that company. Sorta like online therapy.:D :D :D

Stay sharp gentlemen

Robin Brown
 
brownie0486 said:
I drive my wifes VW ocassionally, but do not like their position on not supporting our efforts in Iraq. I buy French bread and don't appreciate their efforts to thwart our efforts over there as well.

Robin Brown
Click to expand...

LMAO! that has to be the most inane thing I have ever read. Definitely a good excuse for supporting thieves and dangerously irresponsible advertising. :rolleyes:

Everyone knows that VW steals their designs from General Motors directly, and blatantly advertises the New Beetle as the best car for running down pedestrians, drunk driving, and fleeing law enforcement. And of course when you go to the bakery and buy french bread, it lines the coffers of the French Government. To avoid this, just start calling it "freedom bread" instead.
:p
 
"Definitely a good excuse for supporting thieves and dangerously irresponsible advertising."

We have our first coombiya contestant, only 19 more to go.:D

You make some strong statements about dangerously irresponsible advertising sir. Care to back that up with some supporting evidence that anyone has taken that advertising seriously enough to cause mayhem in the streets.

No, more likely, your claims of irresponsible advertsing are just what they are, subjective nonsense spewed forth based on an obvious bias and personal opinions, not facts in evidence as you suggest. :barf:

19 to go--- then we can start the coombiya train here.

Robin Brown
 
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