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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
DarkOPs StratoFighter
- Thread starter brownie0486
- Start date
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- Mar 26, 2004
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- 1,467
As you imply, lockbacks should lock up securely - they do not break in nearly as much as liner and integral locks.Cliff Stamp said:
Brownie is now making much of his spine whack test - as I have said, the one I got a look at failed a moderate spne whack test. Possible QC issues?
I'll try to get a hold of the knife again for pictures, but can't make any promises as my friend is off post for a bit.
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"Brownie is now making much of his spine whack test"
No will,
I'm not making much of the test I performed. I reported the results based on a posters question on whether I had done that test on my Strato.
I tested the knife very hard, based on others comments that the lock was not safe to rely on in many's opinion. No more or less. Simple test with objective reporting of the results.
I tested many knives for other makers over a few years on a site specifically set up and designed to give results of those tested. I have spine whacked quite a few knives, most passed, some failed. What I had never done was test one so violently like I did this Strato, and it passed multiple times. Not many would do the test as hard on any knife as I did this one.
I mentioned the test again recently as Rat stated " So now you have disassembled your knife? That is the only way you can visually inspect the lockup. I would like to see a pic like the one cougar posted above, showing the actual lockup of the knife."
He was incorrect in that statement. I explained why he was incorrect and how I determined how far the lockbar went into the blade tang recess without disassembling the knife.
I further explained that with the Spine Whack test, one could determine if the lock was performing/mating as it should and functioning properly, in a further attempt to demonstrate one can make these determinations without taking the knife apart.
That your firends Strato failed the test is not a reflection on the lock design being inferior when you stated the Strato's "lock design seemed inadequate".
You were also incorrect in your assessment and statement. That it failed is not necessarily a function of an "inadequate" lock design but of that knifes lockup/mating and execution on that particular knife.
As I suggested before, your friend should send the knife back to Frank who will make it right for the customer if in fact the knifes lockworks is not executed properly.
In years passed, when a CRKT or another manufacturers knife didn't pass the spine whakc testing, I didn't declare it had an inadequate lock design, no matter what locking system that particular knife used, as that would not have been correct.
When I owned two Strider knives [ good strong knives IMO ] and the framelocks would not release the blade without two hands to do so because the mating surfaces were not set correctly, I did not declare the lock design inferior. Mick has had many knives go back new from him as well for QC issues over the years.
I think you get the idea here. If for some reason you feel this is talking down to you, sorry about that. It is not. Stating facts objectively is never one way or the other as you felt it was earlier.
BTW- I beat the hell out of the Strato in the spine whack test for one reason. I wanted to see if there WERE issues I needed to be aware of as others questioned the locks on them. As I'll rely on this knife in a real world environ where performance counts and not on some street corner showing friends something new, I NEED to know if the Strato has weaknesses and if so what those weaknesses are so I can determine if I want to rely on this for it's intended purpose.
Robin Brown
No will,
I'm not making much of the test I performed. I reported the results based on a posters question on whether I had done that test on my Strato.
I tested the knife very hard, based on others comments that the lock was not safe to rely on in many's opinion. No more or less. Simple test with objective reporting of the results.
I tested many knives for other makers over a few years on a site specifically set up and designed to give results of those tested. I have spine whacked quite a few knives, most passed, some failed. What I had never done was test one so violently like I did this Strato, and it passed multiple times. Not many would do the test as hard on any knife as I did this one.
I mentioned the test again recently as Rat stated " So now you have disassembled your knife? That is the only way you can visually inspect the lockup. I would like to see a pic like the one cougar posted above, showing the actual lockup of the knife."
He was incorrect in that statement. I explained why he was incorrect and how I determined how far the lockbar went into the blade tang recess without disassembling the knife.
I further explained that with the Spine Whack test, one could determine if the lock was performing/mating as it should and functioning properly, in a further attempt to demonstrate one can make these determinations without taking the knife apart.
That your firends Strato failed the test is not a reflection on the lock design being inferior when you stated the Strato's "lock design seemed inadequate".
You were also incorrect in your assessment and statement. That it failed is not necessarily a function of an "inadequate" lock design but of that knifes lockup/mating and execution on that particular knife.
As I suggested before, your friend should send the knife back to Frank who will make it right for the customer if in fact the knifes lockworks is not executed properly.
In years passed, when a CRKT or another manufacturers knife didn't pass the spine whakc testing, I didn't declare it had an inadequate lock design, no matter what locking system that particular knife used, as that would not have been correct.
When I owned two Strider knives [ good strong knives IMO ] and the framelocks would not release the blade without two hands to do so because the mating surfaces were not set correctly, I did not declare the lock design inferior. Mick has had many knives go back new from him as well for QC issues over the years.
I think you get the idea here. If for some reason you feel this is talking down to you, sorry about that. It is not. Stating facts objectively is never one way or the other as you felt it was earlier.
BTW- I beat the hell out of the Strato in the spine whack test for one reason. I wanted to see if there WERE issues I needed to be aware of as others questioned the locks on them. As I'll rely on this knife in a real world environ where performance counts and not on some street corner showing friends something new, I NEED to know if the Strato has weaknesses and if so what those weaknesses are so I can determine if I want to rely on this for it's intended purpose.
Robin Brown
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As my friend will be relying on his knife on deployment within the next year, in my humble opinion it needs to be reliable, and is not. That's a "real world enviroment" issue. As we are currently training, if the lock fails and shuts on his hand next weekend, that is a "real world issue". Given my profession, your response - like your last one - is incredibly inane. Clearly, you have made up your mind about the knife and are unwilling to consider an objective perspective.brownie0486 said:
As opposed to someone - I won't mention names (*cough* Robin Brown) whose had to leave several forums for overstating qualifications and blowing his own horn over a unverifiable sevice record. I didn't mean to call ya out man, but your repeated arrogance and down talking really get under my skin.
I don't want to get into an internet flame war with you, but you have some serious attitude problems and seem intent on trying to start one.
Cliff Stamp
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Will P. said:
I have always felt the critism of artificial evaluations was baseless and quite frankly absurd. Advocating to wait until the knife had to be depended opon is just irresponsible, plus even in general, it is actually relevant to the judgement of the quality of a knife if the lock fails under torques/impacts by a 15 year old teenager or a "high speed operator", it is how the lock behaves, not who is doing the work that is of interest.
What I find odd is someone who is willing to put so much money into promoting the knives does spend the money to check the knives before shipping, especially when you promote them so aggressively and are trying to establish a name. You could just pay someone minimum wage and have them perform a few standard checks on the knives and they could easily inspect ~500 knives a day.
-Cliff
Mr. Brown,
Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, I couldn't find any info on it-
Do you know if there is any difference between Dark Ops' RaptorLok(TM) and the Extrema Ratio lockback lock?
Also do you know if there is a difference between CTV2 steel and N690?
Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, I couldn't find any info on it-
Do you know if there is any difference between Dark Ops' RaptorLok(TM) and the Extrema Ratio lockback lock?
Also do you know if there is a difference between CTV2 steel and N690?
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"As my friend will be relying on his knife on deployment within the next year, in my humble opinion it needs to be reliable, and is not. As we are currently training, if the lock fails and shuts on his hand next weekend, that is a "real world issue"
Yes it is an issue and I recommended he send the knife back, why would he wait to do so if it is an issue is the question.
"Clearly, you have made up your mind about the knife and are unwilling to consider an objective perspective."
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion and statement Will. I clearly stated that I would be continuing with performance results as I used the knife in the field and reporting back to the readers.
"whose had to leave several forums for overstating qualifications and blowing his own horn over a unverifiable sevice record"
The records have been vrified Will, you just are not aware of that verification or the records you speak of. All records are verifiable, thats why they are records. They will not be verified on the internet though, nor should one expect they would be.
"I didn't mean to call ya out man, but your repeated arrogance and down talking really get under my skin. I don't want to get into an internet flame war with you, but you have some serious attitude problems and seem intent on trying to start one."
I stated facts and pointed out the error in your subjective statements about the lock on your friends knife. It would appear you didn't like my remarks on your opinions stated as facts and had to bring issues not germain to the review of the knife into question which would, of course, be construed as trying to start exactly what you deny you are trying not to do.
Again, I suggest you have your friend send the knife back to them to be corrected or replaced. Why wait?
freddy1: Welcome sir.
leatherbird: thanks for the thoughts
Robin Brown
Yes it is an issue and I recommended he send the knife back, why would he wait to do so if it is an issue is the question.
"Clearly, you have made up your mind about the knife and are unwilling to consider an objective perspective."
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion and statement Will. I clearly stated that I would be continuing with performance results as I used the knife in the field and reporting back to the readers.
"whose had to leave several forums for overstating qualifications and blowing his own horn over a unverifiable sevice record"
The records have been vrified Will, you just are not aware of that verification or the records you speak of. All records are verifiable, thats why they are records. They will not be verified on the internet though, nor should one expect they would be.
"I didn't mean to call ya out man, but your repeated arrogance and down talking really get under my skin. I don't want to get into an internet flame war with you, but you have some serious attitude problems and seem intent on trying to start one."
I stated facts and pointed out the error in your subjective statements about the lock on your friends knife. It would appear you didn't like my remarks on your opinions stated as facts and had to bring issues not germain to the review of the knife into question which would, of course, be construed as trying to start exactly what you deny you are trying not to do.
Again, I suggest you have your friend send the knife back to them to be corrected or replaced. Why wait?
freddy1: Welcome sir.
leatherbird: thanks for the thoughts
Robin Brown
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eleven:
I have not taken either of the knives apart so I can not determine if there are mechanical differences but from outward appearances they look the same to me.
As to the differences in blade steel between the two, I do not know. Frank is not releasing the makeup of the ctv2 steel his blades are made of at this time. My guess is they are of very similiar makeup as both have cobalt, tungsten, and vanadium as ingredients. I would think other elements are also included in both but in what quantities I do not know.
I think a some background may be in order which may clear up some poeples questions and perhaps I should have included them in the initial review to be begin with.
I purchased an ER MPC and liked the knife a lot. I stated my initial impressions here on that knife after using it for awhile. It is a rugged folder that can withstand a lot of abuse due to its design parameters and materials used in it's manufacture. I liked the edge geometry and felt the knife edge could withstand a lot of abuse without suffering damage prematurely when used hard.
I gave that knife to a good friend of mine who is a well driller and roughneck in the true sense of the word. He was always breaking/destroying his folders as he would not stop using them in his job instead of the right tools. He preferred to just grab what was in his pocket instead of running to the tool box.
He had the MPC for months before he lost it on a job. That knife suffered no damage structurally in that time. It needed to be sharpened every week and I took care of that for him when I would see him at the gun club on Sunday mornings or he would come by the house during the week. I remember one time I was sharpening the knife and it has some real deep marks on the spine of the blade and the edge was particularly messed up, more so that normal for him.
He told me used it that week to cut through some pvc piping which had water inside it and was frozen. He had taken a crecsent wrench that was laying on the ground to the spine of the knife and pounded it to break the pvc. The lock had never failed on him in all his prying, chopping and digging on the job. I was impressed to say the least, but not that surprised.
The biggest thing I did not like about the knife was its smooth surface area which affected gripping the knife dry and more so if my hands were wet. That didn't bother Scott, the well driller, as he always wore gloves while working. He liked the size of the knife. It was big enough to get a good hold on it with gloves and he did not have to be dainty with it at all.
When I learned DOK was going to make something similiar with some design changes, I wanted one. One of the biggest design changes would be the finger grooves and the inserts in the recesses of the handle which would solve the grippability issues I had with the MPC.
I knew the design was solid and strong and if the materials used were good the knife should perform as well as the MPC had for Scott before he lost it.
I haven't carried anything other than lockbacks for a few years now after deciding that lock is something I could rely on more so than others where strength was concerned. The StratoFighter utilizes that locking system.
Neither the MPC nor the StratoFighter are folders for everyone, no more so or less so than any other knife out there. The edge on the knives are more like axes, not like an Enduras fine edge. The grind is such so they can withstand some serious work loads without chipping or breaking under stresses they may see.
The overall designs of the knives would not be to everyones tastes, and have not been. Nothing new there. I don't prefer many knives that others feel are the cats meow for them, though in the past I have carried more that are at the other end of the scale from these two than not as well.
Many do not like glocks, others do. I didn't like them for years and would not buy one, now I have owned one for many years. I still think they are not the most esthetically pleasing handguns but they function well and are dependable under harsh conditions so I carry one.
I would not expect the edge geometry of the MPC or the Strato to perform as well as an enduras edge at slicing soda bottles open. I would also not exepect an Endura to be able to withstand poundings on it's spine into pvc piping and not suffer major damage to the blade and edge.
I fully expect the Strato to be as strong as the MPC, if it is not, I'll address that with Frank Miller if and when I need to. I don't expect it to perform like an Endura anymore that I expect the Endura to perform like the Strato. One needs to make accounts for both and not be unrealisitic in their expectations of either.
I don't need a fragile edge on my knife in the middle of the Superstition Mountains anymore than I need a commercial tourists backpack. Neither will stand up to the environ I walk into regularly for very long.
If the Strato does not live up to my expectations for any reason, I'll be reporting that as well.
Robin Brown
I have not taken either of the knives apart so I can not determine if there are mechanical differences but from outward appearances they look the same to me.
As to the differences in blade steel between the two, I do not know. Frank is not releasing the makeup of the ctv2 steel his blades are made of at this time. My guess is they are of very similiar makeup as both have cobalt, tungsten, and vanadium as ingredients. I would think other elements are also included in both but in what quantities I do not know.
I think a some background may be in order which may clear up some poeples questions and perhaps I should have included them in the initial review to be begin with.
I purchased an ER MPC and liked the knife a lot. I stated my initial impressions here on that knife after using it for awhile. It is a rugged folder that can withstand a lot of abuse due to its design parameters and materials used in it's manufacture. I liked the edge geometry and felt the knife edge could withstand a lot of abuse without suffering damage prematurely when used hard.
I gave that knife to a good friend of mine who is a well driller and roughneck in the true sense of the word. He was always breaking/destroying his folders as he would not stop using them in his job instead of the right tools. He preferred to just grab what was in his pocket instead of running to the tool box.
He had the MPC for months before he lost it on a job. That knife suffered no damage structurally in that time. It needed to be sharpened every week and I took care of that for him when I would see him at the gun club on Sunday mornings or he would come by the house during the week. I remember one time I was sharpening the knife and it has some real deep marks on the spine of the blade and the edge was particularly messed up, more so that normal for him.
He told me used it that week to cut through some pvc piping which had water inside it and was frozen. He had taken a crecsent wrench that was laying on the ground to the spine of the knife and pounded it to break the pvc. The lock had never failed on him in all his prying, chopping and digging on the job. I was impressed to say the least, but not that surprised.
The biggest thing I did not like about the knife was its smooth surface area which affected gripping the knife dry and more so if my hands were wet. That didn't bother Scott, the well driller, as he always wore gloves while working. He liked the size of the knife. It was big enough to get a good hold on it with gloves and he did not have to be dainty with it at all.
When I learned DOK was going to make something similiar with some design changes, I wanted one. One of the biggest design changes would be the finger grooves and the inserts in the recesses of the handle which would solve the grippability issues I had with the MPC.
I knew the design was solid and strong and if the materials used were good the knife should perform as well as the MPC had for Scott before he lost it.
I haven't carried anything other than lockbacks for a few years now after deciding that lock is something I could rely on more so than others where strength was concerned. The StratoFighter utilizes that locking system.
Neither the MPC nor the StratoFighter are folders for everyone, no more so or less so than any other knife out there. The edge on the knives are more like axes, not like an Enduras fine edge. The grind is such so they can withstand some serious work loads without chipping or breaking under stresses they may see.
The overall designs of the knives would not be to everyones tastes, and have not been. Nothing new there. I don't prefer many knives that others feel are the cats meow for them, though in the past I have carried more that are at the other end of the scale from these two than not as well.
Many do not like glocks, others do. I didn't like them for years and would not buy one, now I have owned one for many years. I still think they are not the most esthetically pleasing handguns but they function well and are dependable under harsh conditions so I carry one.
I would not expect the edge geometry of the MPC or the Strato to perform as well as an enduras edge at slicing soda bottles open. I would also not exepect an Endura to be able to withstand poundings on it's spine into pvc piping and not suffer major damage to the blade and edge.
I fully expect the Strato to be as strong as the MPC, if it is not, I'll address that with Frank Miller if and when I need to. I don't expect it to perform like an Endura anymore that I expect the Endura to perform like the Strato. One needs to make accounts for both and not be unrealisitic in their expectations of either.
I don't need a fragile edge on my knife in the middle of the Superstition Mountains anymore than I need a commercial tourists backpack. Neither will stand up to the environ I walk into regularly for very long.
If the Strato does not live up to my expectations for any reason, I'll be reporting that as well.
Robin Brown
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- Apr 6, 2003
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eleven:
You are welcome. I should mention that the knife was sharp but not to my liking. It only took 4 passes on the course spydie stones to get it very aggressive. I believe the edge should be easyto maintain once dulled some based on the initial results
Robin Brown
You are welcome. I should mention that the knife was sharp but not to my liking. It only took 4 passes on the course spydie stones to get it very aggressive. I believe the edge should be easyto maintain once dulled some based on the initial results
Robin Brown
Cliff Stamp
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brownie0486 said:
Ice and plastic would do nothing serious to the edge on the Endura. The knife might break if you hit it hard enough, depending on which steel in the Endura, this would take different amount of impacts, all of which would be greater than the force necessary to do the cutting anyway. If you are curious I can do this with a few Spyderco's and post the pictures. Which tasks have you used a knife for that has caused significant damage to which had edges less than the thickness of the ER/DO knives?
-Cliff
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http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=5201666#post5201666
I just came in from down back and the last six pics on that thread should be self explanatory. The knife was tested for lateral strength with the blade opened and held my weight of 185 #'s.
Cliff, I don't do anything like the testing you do. I have had edges chip out on several folders but the worst one I remember was the ats-55 spyderco police model years back.
The Strato would not chip due to the blade edge being what it is IMO, it would have to take a good chunk out of it before that happened.
The Enduras edge is not designed to take that type of stress or abuse and perform well, the strato's is, and that was the point. If I want to cut soda bottles and paper, I don't need the strato.
Robin Brown
I just came in from down back and the last six pics on that thread should be self explanatory. The knife was tested for lateral strength with the blade opened and held my weight of 185 #'s.
Cliff, I don't do anything like the testing you do. I have had edges chip out on several folders but the worst one I remember was the ats-55 spyderco police model years back.
The Strato would not chip due to the blade edge being what it is IMO, it would have to take a good chunk out of it before that happened.
The Enduras edge is not designed to take that type of stress or abuse and perform well, the strato's is, and that was the point. If I want to cut soda bottles and paper, I don't need the strato.
Robin Brown
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2005
- Messages
- 58
I used the Stratofighter for over 6 months,almost daily. I am happy with the results of the knife. The knife is on my belt in a Lone Wolf sheath used for their large folder. For the last 25 years I have used a fixed blade knife for edc. I do not use the knife for any self protection but for construction work. I was using a MOD stinger and the handle was surperb to me. While in Maryland at a Wa-Wa convience store (upgraded 7-11) a state trooper asked if my knife was a MOD Stinger? I said it was and took it off my belt with the quik clip.We had a knife discussion and how he liked MOD knives himself. He liked the knife ,gave it back and said a fixed blade knife was illegal in his state. However a large folder was legal,so I might want to carry a folder when I came back into his state. This caused me to look for a folder,my first in years. I called a dealer who sold me the MOD stinger and asked about the ER knives, since they have a rugged reputation.I told the dealer that the stinger handle with the inserts was great and I wished I could find a folder with the grippy grip inserts. He said he had both ER knives and the new Dark ops knives which he felt was an inprovement over the ER knives. He mentioned it was extra heavy duty and if I did not like the knife he pay for the freight back. I told him later that the knife was just what I wanted. Mentioned that the belt clip was too tight and the knife seemed to heavy for my pants pocket,even if the clip worked. He then sold me a Lone Wolf sheath. Very happy. The knife has done almost everything,cut PVC pipe, wire, cardboard ,wood ,dig dirt,it digs and scraps lots of dirt off equipment. Interesting item is that not being used to folders the knife does not fold closed when dirt is in the lock mechanism. The knife has to be flushed out with water to enable it to fold closed. The folder in the belt sheath gets a lot less looks from people than the fix blade knife. After buying the knife I saw all the comments about copies and tasteless advertising on this forum. To me the knife is built well and the inserts on the handle are similar to the MOD. The advertising copy is funny,and probably not to be taken seriously,but if advertising is to get you notice it has worked. One negative which was noticed was that the secondary lock never worked. I noticed that other people disabled this functioned,this knife secondary lock never worked. When the knife is opened the handle and blade are very tight. No movement at all.The blade opens very smoothly and fast.I still use the Mod stinger and someday I issue a report of a conversation with the former owner of MOD and how he was expecting the stinger to be a grand slam home run in sales and the large knife I believe it is the mark V to be a slow seller. Well the stinger is now discontinued and the Mark V is a big seller.As he said "what do I know about knives".
Regards,
Timmberman
Regards,
Timmberman
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Never mind...I just noticed that this is an old thread brought BTTT.
nilagorilla
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Actually, it isn't my views about the person that color my oppinions about his product, it is vice versa. I have no idea who the guy is, but anyone who blatently copies another design and markets it the way he dose looses respect in my eyes. The ER line of folders were very unique, not derivative of anything else I had seen before. These are almost exact copies of those basic designs with just subtle changes to the cosmetics.
I also find their marketing strategy absurd to the point of being comedic. Who actually looked at their ad copy and thought the phrase "covert deanimation activities" was a good choice???
:barf:
I'm sure the knives are of fine quality, I don't doubt that. But there are many fine knives out there, so many that I find it unnecessary to give my money to people who are trying to profit off other peoples designs while furthering the whole "mall ninja" mentality by talking about deanimation and blood spray.
opionions are like assholes :jerkit:
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Reported. I smell a troll!
Brian Jones
Moderator
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Good catch G Frightening! He's gone! 
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Nice work, Sir!:thumbup:
Regards,
3G
Regards,
3G