dating Js knives???

WoodWorkGhost said:
Knives that are considered "old or older" in most cases will considered inferior to the current makers price. Subsequently they should be worth less. Whether this is true or not is not the issue. It is a fact that a large sector of the knife buying public do not like having a date on their knife.

Dating a knives will hurt more often then help your collectors trade or sell their knives in the after market. Speaking as some who lives in that market, seldom will you pay for an older knife what you will pay for a new knife. There are exceptions...but very few.

WWG
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IMO, a quality custom knife from a well know reputable maker, made of quality materials, in new condition and made to the maker's current standards is in no way less valuable than a new knife form that same maker. Tim Hancock would be an excellent example as he dates and his older pieces do not suffer. It's more about the indivisual piece rather than the age of a piece.

IMO, the reason older custom knives tend to brings less than new has more to do with collector's mind set that you have to sell for less than they paid new. We see it on the exchange forum everyday. Collectors list nice knives for 20% under new, then proceed to lower them every 12 hours that they remain unsold.

Most on-line dealers that consign and buy from collectors don't discount them. Daniel O’Malley sells lots of very nice second hand custom knives everyday at current maker prices or more if it's rare or from a hot maker.

No, it's collectors bringing down the resale price of older knives, not age or date marks.
 
Hi Kevin,

Your focus is on in demand high end ABS makers work. A very narrow view of the entire custom knife market. It seems you are basing your comments on what the creme of the crop makers in a particular sector is doing.

The knives that Daniel is selling exactly which makers are you referring to, how old are the knives and define "lots".

Kevin you are taking the long term view of your collection with an eye towards investment. You are doing your part to help keep the demand up and subsequently the prices. This is good for the maker, you and the collectors who purchase knives from you.

However, the majority of the custom knives sell for less in the after market because they were priced to high to begin with. This is why it is essential for both makers and collectors to know a makers position in the market. Value pricing in conjunction with quality materials will almost always bring a nice return on your investment.

Lastly, it is makers, collectors and dealers that are responsible for prices in the after market. Makers who over charge for their work, collectors who don't know the actual value of a knife before they purchase it. The dealers who represent makers and sell their knives, yet don't offer any kind of trade in policy on these knives or have a very limited return policy or charge a restocking fee, etc.

BTW, checked out Daniels site, he has a more than fair consignment policy. Didn't see any mention of a trade in policy. Did I miss that?

Then again it is virtually impossible to predict what the custom knife market will do.

WWG
 
Well, I'm a little unsure on the dating idea now... however, I am definitely using the Js stamp. I worked damn hard to get it, and it means a great deal to me. :)

It's also a definitive association with the ABS on my knives... which I am quite proud of. :thumbup:

Thanks for all of the input folks :D
 
Kevin Jones said:
That's the spirit Nick and you should be proud. :thumbup:
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Good for you, Kevin.
And Nick, too. I'm proud just to have met him. He'd BETTER use that stamp!
But, I will also agree with WWG: "However, the majority of the custom knives sell for less in the after market because they were priced to high to begin with."
 
I agree with Nick that he should put the JS Stamp on his knives. This, for Nick has been a struggle of "Epic" proportions. :D

For custom knives to really move into the "investment" category it will take an concerted effort on the part of Makers, Collectors and Dealers.

This effort will require a level of business knowledge, knowledge of maker positions both primary and after market and dealers standing behind the makers they represent. Not merely acting as a commodities broker. I don't see this happening any time soon...if ever.

WWG

PS Congrats Nick. Tried to look you up a couple of times at the show....Man it was BUSY!
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi Kevin,

Your focus is on in demand high end ABS makers work. A very narrow view of the entire custom knife market. It seems you are basing your comments on what the creme of the crop makers in a particular sector is doing.

The knives that Daniel is selling exactly which makers are you referring to, how old are the knives and define "lots".

Kevin you are taking the long term view of your collection with an eye towards investment. You are doing your part to help keep the demand up and subsequently the prices. This is good for the maker, you and the collectors who purchase knives from you.

However, the majority of the custom knives sell for less in the after market because they were priced to high to begin with. This is why it is essential for both makers and collectors to know a makers position in the market. Value pricing in conjunction with quality materials will almost always bring a nice return on your investment.

Lastly, it is makers, collectors and dealers that are responsible for prices in the after market. Makers who over charge for their work, collectors who don't know the actual value of a knife before they purchase it. The dealers who represent makers and sell their knives, yet don't offer any kind of trade in policy on these knives or have a very limited return policy or charge a restocking fee, etc.

BTW, checked out Daniels site, he has a more than fair consignment policy. Didn't see any mention of a trade in policy. Did I miss that?

Then again it is virtually impossible to predict what the custom knife market will do.

WWG
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You make some good points Les. One in particularly is that some makers do over price their knives thus collectors can expect to take a hit upon resale.

However, in my previous post I was addressing undervalued sales by collectors of knives made by the "in demand" ABS makers I work with. You are also right in that I do focus my efforts on a particular sector. I applaud the collectors with the broad knowledge of the entire customs market, however as a relative "newbie" compared to some here I have yet to gain that knowledge so elect to be specialized.

Daniel O'Malley (Blade Gallery), only consigns or takes trades on "new/unused as new" pieces and seeks current pricing information form the maker on practically all customs he takes in. He will adjust his listing price 5-10% +/- to reflect current market conditions.

With this pricing strategy he helps support the primary market for makers, secondary market for collectors and I imagine makes a buck for himself.
I would suggest collectors to seek pricing advice form makers when offering pieces for sale as they adjust their collections. I can't imagine makers not wanting to help as they have skin in the game.

Thanks for your interaction and challenges Les, as you help to keep us all honest and open minded.

Sorry to hijack your thread Nick.
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
I agree with Nick that he should put the JS Stamp on his knives. This, for Nick has been a struggle of "Epic" proportions. :D

For custom knives to really move into the "investment" category it will take an concerted effort on the part of Makers, Collectors and Dealers.

This effort will require a level of business knowledge, knowledge of maker positions both primary and after market and dealers standing behind the makers they represent. Not merely acting as a commodities broker. I don't see this happening any time soon...if ever.

WWG

PS Congrats Nick. Tried to look you up a couple of times at the show....Man it was BUSY!
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I totally agree, but that should not keep us from trying......
 
1. Piece, first.
2. Maker, second.
3. Price, third.

This is my buying mantra. It may not apply to everyone(priorities might be different), but has served me well for the 15 years that I have been applying it.

The knife has to appeal to you, if it was made yesterday, or made 30 years ago. Condition would fall under this area, so would all the minute details of materials and aesthetics.

The maker is important, as everyone has indicated, specifically WWG, in discussing "market position".

Price is important, as it is as personal as any characteristic of a knife can be. Too much, just right, a steal? That is for you to decide, based upon how much you want it, what the after market is doing, and how readily the work is moving.

Nick is INCREDIBLY gifted, has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder combined with Attention Deficit Disorder.:D This means that he does not have a lot of output, but what does get stamped and sold will be pretty damned close to perfect. Don Fogg recommended Nick to me, the only other maker he ever suggested was Vince Evans. All this means that Nick doesn't have a lot of product on the market.

He does however, have a number of collectors that will absorb every piece that he makes, quickly. Can also say from personal observation and study, that Nick's work from 5 years ago is just as good as the work today. He listens, takes advice, strives to be the best maker he can, and does it without telling you how great he is. In a craft rife with huge egos, he has an almost unassuming and genteel manner.

This indicates Nick can mark his pieces with JS, no JS or BS, date or no date, and his stuff will sell readily. I'm not sure if that will be the case in 30 years from now, but my crystal ball is out for cleaning.

He could be the next Don Fogg, or he could be the next John M. Smith, really up to him.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
The debate is not whether a new knife is more valuable than an old one, though that makes for interresting talk. A new knife is new, and an old knife is old, and a date on the blade is just proof one way or the other.

The main objection to the dating idea seems to be from purveyors. If the knife is dated, it is proven to be a certain age, where a knife that is not dated can be passed off as more current or even new if that's what is needed to make it sell. I can see how this would make life easier on a dealer wanting only to move product. If it is to his benefit for a knife to be old, or vintage, or "one of the original _____" then he can state it as such. If it sells better for it to be billed as new then it can be. It gives the dealer latitude in his sales approach, and I can see where that would be helpful to him.

However, marking the knife means that no matter what anyone's motivation is, the knife is what it is. Old or new, the knife says who made it and when, good, bad or indifferent. This will make it harder for it to be passed off as something it is not. A date on the blade means that when a collector gets the knife on the secondary market, he will know when it was made and not buy something that he is led to believe is older or newer than it actually is, just because someone wanted to make a sale.
 
Burt Foster said:
The debate is not whether a new knife is more valuable than an old one, though that makes for interresting talk. A new knife is new, and an old knife is old, and a date on the blade is just proof one way or the other.

The main objection to the dating idea seems to be from purveyors.
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Burt,

You have many issues with WWG, and, for the most part, I have found them amusing.

I don't think you are on the mark, here, though. I have not seen WWG, or any other REPUTABLE maker pass off old as new. Frankly, find your above to be uncharacteristically cynical.

No, I rather find WWG to give the old adage "not sure when it was made, but it is a great piece" to make the sale. It is his job to sell knives, you know?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
For custom knives to really move into the "investment" category it will take an concerted effort on the part of Makers, Collectors and Dealers.
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In most cases, the JS is a transitional phase of the maker's career. I am not knowledgable about many other art forms, so I wonder if the painters, sculpters, etc. dated their work while in a comparative transitional phase within their chosen field of art? I suspect that some did and some did'nt, but then again some suceeded and some faded into oblivion.

The question of course, is concerning the JS stamp. I readily see merit in dating the MS knives.
Lin
 
Burt,

Once again your myopic view of the entire custom knife market, that is as a maker, who builds forged blades, and wants to be thought of as an artist. Has brought you to an incorrect conclusion.

You and other makers view dealers as those who will lie, cheat or steal to make a buck. This view point about dealers has probably been around since the first artist said "Id love to sell you my product", To be followed shortly by another conversation with someone who said "you gave him a discount for what? Selling your knives? You could have done that". That part of the conversation is usually with someone who doesn't work with a dealer.

Your confusion exists as to what it takes to be a dealer and sell knives in a very competitive market. See you only to know your knives. I have to know your knives, everyone else's knives in the ABS and even a few of those Stock Removal guys. This is one of the reasons that I and other dealers are asked to judge at a show like the Blade Show and you are not. It is not intellect, it is your lack of knowledge in the area of the "totality" of he custom knife market.

Dealers, since they don't actually make the knife, don't really have to inject the "artists prerogative" during the sale. Instead I have to listen to exactly what my clients and potential clients want. You make the assumption when I say I don't like dates on knives that it is "I" who does not like the date on my knife. However, it is not "I" who doesn't like the date on the blade. It is the majority of the buyers of custom knives who over the last 20+ years who have told me this. This extends not merely to one very small sector of the market, but to the totality of the custom knife market. The same is true for Mokume, Giraffe Bone, Nickel Silver and other unpopular materials that makers still use. Again, when I say "I" don't like them the reference is the majority of the custom knife market.

Do makers still use those materials, yep. Do collectors still buy those materials yes. Do collectors have difficulty selling or trading those knives in the "deep end of the pool" yes they do. Again, as the maker and the collector it is your prerogative to make you want and buy what you want.

Burt you don't worry about dates as in general you will only have the current years work on your table. However, experience shows that this will hurt the sale of the knife in the after market. This however, is not your worry as you no longer own the knife and only want to focus on the present years work. Collectors of your work on the other hand are the ones who will have to deal with this. I would think a maker would want to give the collectors of their work every advantage they could in the after market.

Burt I answer any question I get about a custom knife to the best of my ability. Which includes the date. I sell a lot of older knives as well as brand new knives. So your comment is way off base.

Both makers and dealers sell knives!

Your job as the maker is to make the very best knife you can each time. Whether it is an order, a "spec" knife or a show knife and sell it.

My job is to sort through all the knives in the world. Find those makers who are doing great work, commensurate with their time as a maker. Who offer value pricing, have a good reputation in the after market, market themselves, have good business practices, produce a good body of work each year, show the ability to work with a large array of materials, and have the ability to adapt their styles to what the current market is looking for. Then stand behind these makers and their work with a trade in policy that is second to none. Oh yea, then I have to sell the knife.

STeven,

As always thank you for your post.

WWG
Seller of other peoples wares!
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Burt,...
You and other makers view dealers as those who will lie...
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I'm sure you can see the irony of that statment simply in your screen-name and constant profession that you, WWG, are not Les Robertson.

Burt's point is valid; a dated knife is a way of removing doubt and at the extreme, avoiding fraud.

Nick, I will be stamping my knives with "JS." If only to show my association with the ABS. I do not think the stamp is pretentious.

As to marking with JS and the date, as above, it is a good idea; all the relelvant information is right on the knife. However, I do like the unencumbered look of a sterile blade. Six and one-half dozen ;).
 
I dont consider a user name to be any evidence of dishonesty. In fact, I can say with certainty that WWG can be brutally honest. :D Depending on how you look at it, that could be benificial at times. I think its just wise to make allowances for the more experienced. Heck, some of my opinions differ from WWG's too, but I could say the same thing about anybody. One thing I can say, WWG has done very much to promote Custom knives and will tell you straight.
We're not going to nail down this issue , but I have learned a lot from this thread.
Lin:)
 
I do wish everyone would use their real names, or at lease close enought so everyone would be identified.

I found myself at the Blade Show last week trying to find out who some people were based on their forum names.
 
WWG (sorry, I thought you were Les. My mistake). I am not Burt Foster either, it's just a screen name. Burt doesn't own a computer.

You are being a little sensitive. I never suggested that you would lie about a knife. I made a general statement about what "dealers" might do, and if you think that means that I was specifically talking about you, I was not. If I were, I would have made that clear.

I was addressing the fact that this thread was begun to ask about the idea of dating knives. Your observations related to dated knives. You posed several reasons why older knives do not sell as well, but that is really a seperate issue.

A knife with a date removes all doubt. The reality of a knife's age may hurt sales in today's aftermarket and that was exactly my original point (see my first post). But this is one thing a maker can do to be totally, call it "brutally" honest, not just with the current customer, but insuring that as much of that honesty as possible is passed along to the next generation of buyer. As I said, good, bad or indifferent.

And WWG, remember that your constant belittling of makers will not serve business interests in the long run. We can exist without you, but you cannot exist without us.

I'm sure we've beat this innocuous question to death, but the insults will likely continue on another thread. Same bat time, same bat channel....
 
Thanks again for all of the input fellas. I didn't expect it to stir such a conversation, but I'm glad... there's been a lot of interesting dialog.

I rather enjoy the various posts by Burt and Les. :)

So STeven, I don't think I can afford that post of yours. You may need to edit it so my check doesn't bounce ;) In all seriousness, thanks... you made my day! :)

Speaking of pretentious... I was flipping through some old shots of Henry knives. I had forgotten that he had a stamp that read, "I PREFER - D.E. Henry"

Maybe I could get a stamp that says, "You Rock if you bought N. Wheeler"

HUH??? ;)

LOL :D

I agree with Matt on the clean factor. I work real hard to make my stuff as clean as I can, I don't want to be marking it all up with stuff.

I think I'll hold off on the dating for now. That gives me at least two years to think about doing it at the next level right? :)

Thanks again everyone, your time and input is appreciated :) :thumbup:
 
Nick,

How about just some dots and dashes like the Case pocketknives? People could have little decoder rings to figure out the dates, and you could have your own little cult with followers and secret handshakes. That way, if you aren't in the club, you can't figure out the date and you can keep out people you don't like.

I mean, does that solve everything or what?
 
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