Dave's New Levergun -- a Pacific Northwest Saga

I doubt that I've ever mentioned it, but I tend to favor heavy for caliber bullets in my handloading, and also favor accuracy over speed when choosing a load. A few of my rifles just don't like heavy bullets; most of those are traded off. Regarding the heart lung shot: it IS my favorite, but I also try to take out one or the other of the front shoulders. I often wait for the right angle, something easier to do now that I'm older and slower. Most game never saw it coming.
 
All I can say is me too.
I still have a 270 barrel for a mauser that I've never used. I'm a fan of the 270. Best rifle round I never owned. I go to heaviest for calibre bullet weights and am a fan of modest velocities with large frontal diameter projectiles.


munk
 
Once again, Munk we think alike. My primary deer rifle (I have half a dozen ready to give to that many grandsons between 13 and 8) is a Ruger 77 RSI mannlicher in .270 Win. Favored load is a 160 grain Nosler partition.
 
Jack O'Connor used to say the 270 was like a small handful of magic cartridges that put different bullet weights into roughly the same place downrange on target. The 375 is also known for this. With the 270. expansion and penetration are critical. Luckily, that's what the readily available modern bullets do. Bullet manufacture has never been better. Generally, the heavier for calibre bullet weights perform at long range better than the lighter weights started faster from muzzle. They retain more energy. Modern bullets are so good it really doesn't matter a great deal. Large calibres don't have to expand. When they do, and still retain a core, you have the best combination of permanent wound channel and shock.

The reason large non expanding projectiles are fascinating, is that if technology failed us for some reason, they would not.
We like that. Doesn't matter if the Zombie King, or Alien Overlord has mastered mind control; nothing is going to stop munk's 210 grain, lead semi wadcutter .41 mag bullet traveling at 1100 fps. You can talk to it all you want, but it's coming. Ka thunk.



munk
 
As I like to say, I don't need to worry about expansion. My bullet has expanded to a satisfactory degree before I've even chambered the round. I'm still investigating pure lead bullets, however. With a mild load and multiple coats of Alox, it should work. Should. Such a projectile would definitely expand, even at subsonic velocities. This would actually simplify my current logistical problem as well, since pure or nearly pure lead is easy for me to come by but the more desirable wheel weight alloy (which can be heat treated to considerable hardness very easily) is currently unobtanium. I'll likely have to figure out how to make lead work sooner or later. The problem has actually already been solved for over a century -- paper patching. I don't want to go there just yet though.

The old solutions to modern problems fascinate me -- shaving with a straight razor, shooting bullets that I cast myself, utilizing cartridges that predate smokeless powder, etc. Very often I find that not only do these solutions still work today, but they actually work rather well when one understands their limitations and works within those parameters. Cutting long hairs is difficult for me with the razor. Solution? Trim them down with scissors, then shave them. The 45-70 is at its best inside of 200 yards. Solution? Get closer. ("Bow hunt with a firearm," was how it was explained to me.)

Likewise, these older solutions neatly sidestep many contempory problems that result strictly from the newer, better answer; while some reloaders worry obsessively about velocity windows and pressure curves and bullet construction, I simply worry about hitting the target -- everything else has already been taken care of. Mature technologies are refreshingly simple to work with. ;)

I've been quite the overtime hound recently and I haven't had time to cast any bullets but I'll make a sincere effort to get some done this weekend. I'm rotating to swing shift in a week and my overtime will likely disappear at that time, leaving me plenty of opportunities to cast and shoot.

Another project has occurred to me -- sabot loadings. I've played with these in the past without much success but I'm more knowledgeable these days; perhaps I can make them work now. Unfortunately most are sold without any indication of true diameter and those that are, are too small. I'll have to do more searching.

One final note: those Hornady bullets coppered my lands something fierce. My cast bullet foolery has spoiled me -- I'd completely forgotten how much fun it is (not) to remove metallic fouling. If only Alox worked on jacketed bullets...
 
Dave Rishar said:
As I like to say, I don't need to worry about expansion. My bullet has expanded to a satisfactory degree before I've even chambered the round. I'm still investigating pure lead bullets, however. With a mild load and multiple coats of Alox, it should work. Should. Such a projectile would definitely expand, even at subsonic velocities. This would actually simplify my current logistical problem as well, since pure or nearly pure lead is easy for me to come by

but the more desirable wheel weight alloy (which can be heat treated to considerable hardness very easily) is currently unobtanium. I'll likely have to figure out how to make lead work sooner or later.
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Dave since I know so little about guns and self loading and such I generally read without having anything to say.
But since solder is harder than lead and IIRC solder is an alloy of tin and lead why couldn't you use tin to harden your lead to acceptable limits?
But then tin may be unobtainium as well but solder could still be used although it may be too expensive.
Way back when I was helping my grandfather do plumbing we did a lot of lead waste and the joints were molten solder wiped on with a beeswax loaded piece of pillow ticking. It was an art then and I doubt if it's even used these days but it might be worth a try.
Grandpa bought solder in 25 pound weights that were cakes linked together on a boss. Each cake weighed five pounds. Unlike lead they weren't easy to chisel apart.
 
I actually use solder occasionally to sweeten up the alloy, Yvsa. It's a good source of tin and sometimes antimony. The problem is finding what I need as inexpensively as possible. I'm mainly interested in the following three additives:

Tin: slight hardening of alloy, decreased surface tension. (And thus, better casting qualities.) Expensive.
Antimony: moderate hardening of alloy.
Arsenic: allows heat treating of alloy. Makes possible a moderately tough alloy that's harder than linotype. Commonly found only in wheel weights.

Tin can be purchased and added easily, although it's expensive. I have some on hand. Antimony is difficult to add to molten lead without chemical trickery or extreme temperatures and thus, I'd rather find an alloy that already includes it and just add that. Arsenic is the toughest one. I don't know what it costs or how to add it, I just know that the only really common arsenical alloy is wheel weight alloy. The arsenic is vital if one is striving for high pressure loads; arsenical alloys can exceed linotype in hardness while retaining some toughness (which linotype won't do, it simply shatters) when heat treated properly, and the heat treating can be as simple as dropping bullets from the mold directly into cold water. The amount of arsenic doesn't seem to be important, as long as it's there. That's what I need the wheel weights for.

So, it's not just the hardness that I'm after, but rather hardness with some toughness to resist shattering upon impact. It should be noted though that heat treated arsenical lead is far harder than any solder than I can think of -- we're talking 30+ on the Brinnel scale. (For comparison, linotype is around 22 and pure lead is 6-8.) Such bullets will often splat on the plates rather than shatter, but are still quite hard. It has to do with the work hardening properties of lead, which actually work softens; it's thought that the sizing/engraving process that the bullet undergoes during the course of firing contributes to this, leaving a bullet with a soft exterior and hard core. It's a complicated subject and like quantum mechanics, no one truly understands it but some know how to work in accordance with it anyway. I just follow the directions that I find on the internet. :)

Thus, when you hear bullet casters complaining about people using WW alloy for things other than bullets, you now know why -- most folks use it for ballast or fishing weights, where any heavy metal will do. Bullet casters use it because it's nearly the perfect alloy for such work...the low cost was just icing on the cake.

(I actually cut my WW metal with scrap lead, believe it or not -- WW is too good for bullets in its stock form around here. I'll add a bit of tin if the resulting alloy doesn't cast right.)
 
Dave, this is the second time I've read one of your posts and thought you should be in Handloader Magazine.


..no; let me rephrase that; it was as if I were already on the pages of Handloader magazine and woke with a start to realize I was reading HI forum instead.



munk
 
Dave, Paul Matthews mentioned earlier wrote four books on the 45/70, black powder, bullet alloys, paper patching etc, the very areas you are experimenting with, and for the same reasons. You probably could pick them up on Amazon.com, but Wolfe Publishing (Rifle and Handloader Mags) recently reprinted these as classics and will sell direct to you by mail. "Forty Years with the 45/70" by Matthews would be the place to start, and might keep you from reinventing the wheel.
 
There's been lots of work on the 45/70; why not glean from their experiences?


munk
 
Dave Rishar said:
I actually use solder occasionally to sweeten up the alloy, Yvsa. It's a good source of tin and sometimes antimony. The problem is finding what I need as inexpensively as possible.

(I actually cut my WW metal with scrap lead, believe it or not -- WW is too good for bullets in its stock form around here. I'll add a bit of tin if the resulting alloy doesn't cast right.)
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Thanks Dave. I think now I'm beginning to have a little understanding.:) ;)
 
I'm glad that somebody understands this stuff, as I certainly don't. After several previous tries, my 300-gr FP mold finally started casting decent bullets. Nothing had changed...same alloy, same temperatures, even the same time of day. It just started working. The only fly in the ointment was that several bullets snapped cleanly (think of glass) on one side of the base after coming out of the mold.

I have absolutely no idea why that happened. Lead doesn't snap, does it?

I'm going to take another crack at getting the Winnie to eat cast bullets next weekend. If this latest attempt doesn't work, Plan C involves sacrificing a chicken. (It can't hurt and even if it doesn't work, I'm in the mood for some adobo anyway.)

This cast bullet business is more trouble than it's worth sometimes.
 
Dave Rishar said:
I'm glad that somebody understands this stuff, as I certainly don't. After several previous tries, my 300-gr FP mold finally started casting decent bullets. Nothing had changed...same alloy, same temperatures, even the same time of day. It just started working.

This cast bullet business is more trouble than it's worth sometimes.
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Dave I said I was *beginning* to understand, not that I understood it. Don't forget that I'm an old retired machinist that machined all sorts of alloys. Doesn't seem like you could add lead to steel to make it more macinable but it does. Some of the highpowered leaded steels can be run at speeds greater than some of the harder aluminiums!
The whole thread got me interested even more so I did a little research that may explain why you were getting different results; it seems that not all lead alloys are the same.;)
You have email, I hope it is and or can be of some use to you.
I even found a couple of places that sell arsenic metal but it if you decide to play around with it be very careful.

I was really glad that someone came up with a material other than cyanide for case hardening small steel parts. I was always afraid of the cyanide and always got as far away as possible when anyone was using it to case harden something. Lots of stuff in the machining field can be hazardous to your health to the point of death.:(
Cyanide sure makes some pretty colors in steel though.:cool: :thumbup: :D
 
Dave Rishar said:
I'm still investigating pure lead bullets, however. With a mild load and multiple coats of Alox, it should work.

I'd completely forgotten how much fun it is (not) to remove metallic fouling. If only Alox worked on jacketed bullets...
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The result of a .458 pure lead bullet through a deer's chest appeared to me to go way beyond expansion. It was ghastly, beginning with the gore splattered all over the surrounding bushes. You definately do not want to hit the hind quarter with one of those.

But on a lighter note, investment in an Outers Foul Out III electric cleaner will eliminate those metal fouling concerns. It works on either lead or copper and returns a barrel to unfired condition.
 
Thirty years ago I was casting a lot of bullets, and *may* be able to shed a little bit of light here. Several different molds had a noticable break in period, after which they cast 'unfrosted' bullets with neater sprue cutoffs, and no voids indicated by weighing every bullet. All three problems plagued me prior to breaking in the molds. As for the base shattering or a 'fault line' breaking off at an angle....when lead runs into the mold, assuming high enough temperatures for *that particular alloy* the pour should be smooth from bottom to sprue. Think of pouring really thick paint into a clear plastic cup...it kinda runs back and forth as it goes in. If you are not using a bottom pour furnace, you are probably using a dipper...and pouring from a dipper, you may be unconsciously canting the mold toward the dipper, relieving the stress on the wrist maneuvering the dipper as you pour. The plastic cup of paint held at an angle would have the paint going in to the cup cockeyed to the axis of the cup. Any one of the following problems would then present the symptoms you described as "shearing off at an angle". Not enough flux, and a slight amount of slag picked up by the dipper would give you a fault line at an angle to the axis of the bullet. An "incomplete pour" with the mold held at a slight angle, while you go back to the pot for lead to complete the bullet, would allow a couple seconds of cooling with a second layer of lead at an angle to the axis. Not holding your mouth right, with not enough fiber in your diet.
All kidding aside, DON'T cast indoors, even with a fan, ESPECIALLY when using arsenic or cyanide in your alloy EVEN IF PREMIXED. One last trick, after you drop your bullets into the water or onto a folded towel, and once the mold is closed with the sprue cutoff back in place, try holding the bottom half of the mold in the molten lead to bring it up to the same temp as the lead being poured (this is really helpful in avoiding voids in the inside of the bullet), but is probably unnecessary if you're using a bottom pour furnace and going really fast. Hope some of this makes sense.

jurassicnarc
 
Dave Rishar said:
I'm still investigating pure lead bullets, however. With a mild load and multiple coats of Alox, it should work. Should. Such a projectile would definitely expand, even at subsonic velocities. This would actually simplify my current logistical problem as well, since pure or nearly pure lead is easy for me to come by but the more desirable wheel weight alloy

The old solutions to modern problems fascinate me
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One old solution that works pretty slick is the paper patch - particularly
with that 45/70. You just run your grooved bullets through a .452 sizing die and wrap with two turns of wet bond paper. It is almost ceramic when it dries and that type of bullet can be shot at any speed/pressure.

I have shot a bunch of those in a Marlin with good results and they don't take that long to make. When you use a paper jacket the bullet alloy is pretty much immaterial and leading in the bore is zero.
 
Dave, I just saw this last post days later. The book by Paul Matthews listed in post #49 above does have a whole chapter about paper patched bullets in the 45/70. BUT, one of the other books available from WOLFE PUBLISHING by Mr. Matthews is nothing but paper patching in a variety of calibers. Sounds like just what you're looking for!
 
I appreciate the suggestions.

I know a little about paper wrapping but it's at present a needless complication and another variable to add to an already complex equation. I intend to stay away unless absolutely necessary.

I've read accounts of soft bullets being driven successfully at very high speeds (2000+ fps) through smooth barrels that are a proper match for the bullet diameter. While I haven't explored this territory yet, I find such claims believable; it's been my limited experience that bullet-to-bore fit is everything with cast bullets and at least half of everything with jacketed.

Thus, my existing variables become intriguing -- rough bore, imprecise alloys, less than optimal powder, little experience with the cartridge. The fact that everything's working as well as it does pleases me. Perhaps I should quit experimenting while I'm ahead. :)
 
Dave Rishar said:
I appreciate the suggestions.

I know a little about paper wrapping but it's at present a needless complication and another variable to add to an already complex equation.
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That's the way I see it. I have tried it and it works, but so does a bare bullet with beeswax/vaseline lube and an Outer's Foul Out III to deal with the aftermath. It is a handy thing to know how to do if you have a BIG bullet-to-bore problem. Ross Seyfried patches .458 bullets for his .470 Nitro since there usually aren't alot (zero) of .470 bullets on the shelf.

One load Matthews suggests which I like very much is 15 - 17 gr. of Unique which works with any weight bullet and approximates a black powder load according to him. It is cheap, easy-shooting, doesn't lead and the charges can be dropped with a Lee Auto-disc measure which make them all the more endearing.

IMHO that 45/70 is nothing but fun with any load you try.
 
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