Dave's Newest Project - Rehandling the Sirupati

Remember, Dave, this is a learning experience. As such, we never know in advance just what it is we're about to learn. Sounds like you might have learned why they put hasps on tool boxes ;) Seriously, pal, any craftsman has tossed some failures in the the trash barrel. Goes without saying. Rescue what's salvageable, and try it again. Every project gets a little better than the previous one - that's what counts.

I also want to point out to everyone that you have taped the edge before starting. Great idea - saves a few fingers :D
 
It almost always takes me two or three tries to get a handle just right and thats with all the tools I have.
The more you make the easier it gets but it's been so long for me that starting one now would be like starting anew for me.
Hang in there Dave, don't give up, the end results will be worth it.
I always wanted to do something with Madrone. I figured it would be a beautiful wood.
 
We're getting there.

handle1.jpg


handle2.jpg


Handle is glued on and pretty much shaped. Everything's nice and tight. There's a very small gap between the bottom of the bolster and the top of the handle on one side but it's as close as I'm going to get it with the tools that I have. After the oil dries I'll grind the end of the tang down a little and peen it.

It doesn't look like much but it's more comfortable in my hand than the original was. The ring fits between the middle and ring fingers. The habaki is gone. There's a subtle curve to it and it swells toward the butt, which I like. (It kind of follows the lines of the khuk better than the original but that was completely unintentional...but I'd rather be lucky than good any day of the week.)

Despite the fact that I'm job hunting, I'm not expecting any employment offers from Birghorka...but hey, if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid. I think that my stupid handle will do all right. ;)

This project has taught me quite a bit. It's been a valuable experience. I would never have even attempted it in the first place if I hadn't spent the last year reading about such things from the knowledgeable folks around here. So, again, thanks.

I ought to have it done today. Tomorrow I'll beat the hell out of it and see how it holds up.
 
It looks great!

You made it sound like you were going to end up with 5 inches of un-rounded 2x4 with the tang coming out the side at an angle. That is really nice.

The ergonomics of handles hasn't really been dealt with much here, other than sanding down rings. Makes a huge difference.

You should be proud. You a pioneer.


(Read the safety thread.)

Report back after testing.

oh, and....


wacherass.





Kis
 
I thought that I was going to wind up with 5 inches of unrounded 2x4. That's consistant with my normal level of craftsmanship. I got lucky.

Here's a mystery for the great minds among us:

Preliminary testing on the chopping block (edge, spine, both flats) reveals quite a bit of transmitted shock through the handle. I mean, a lot. Confused, I did the same with my M43. It has a thinner handle, exposed tang, and weighs more - if anything, it should have jarred me more. It didn't. Not even close, actually.

Now, it's been a while since I chopped any wood with this siru and while I do remember it being a "kicker" (nearly lost the butt cap its first time out), I don't recall it being this bad. Odd. Chops on hard wood produce a disagreeable sting along the edge of my hand. In the palm and by the fingers it's not so bad.

So, what's causing this? Is it the wood, or the manner of construction? I'm at a loss here.
 
thanks guys for all the praise... wait a minute which dave are we...?

great seein' you again Kismet.
 
David?

er...David the Satori, not David the Hahn (thankew btw),

Read this site, might provide some insight for you:

http://swordforum.com/sfu/primer/wellmade.html

Pulled from it:

Center of Percussion - Also known as the "Sweet Spot" of a blade, the CoP is (1) the point on the blade exhibiting the lowest tendency to vibrate, and therefore is (2) the most effective portion of the blade to strike the target with. As shown in the illustration above, the fuller ends somewhere before the CoP begins. This reserves material to structurally reinforce the CoP and to reduce "wobbliness".


Vibration & Shock Dissipation Control / Harmonic Balance - While the term "Harmonic Balance" is not necessarily a historical concept or an industry-standard term, the principle behind it is worth mentioning. As with any sword, when struck, it will vibrate. Some swords may handle well but do not have sufficient shock dissipation control. In other words when a sword impacts the target, the shock transfer to the grip can be so great that it can be painful holding it. A badly-vibrating sword can be difficult to control in a fight.
A sword can have two or more "nodes" of minimal vibration - the Center of Percussion happens to be one such node but located on the blade. It is possible - given modern understanding of vibration and harmonics - to artificially position one of these nodes of minimal vibration in the grip. A poorly designed sword - no matter how beautiful in appearance - can suffer vibrational problems and thus adversely impact handling.



Tang Width / Hilt Problems
A frequently overlooked area of hidden weaknesses in swords is the hilt. After all, the hilt is the means by which the blade is manipulated and maneuvered in combat, but it also protects the hand.

The tang is the portion of the blade that enters the hilt. It is generally forged as part of the blade - only narrower so that the steel can enter into the cross guard, through the hilt, and out the pommel, where excess material is heated softer so that it can be hammered / peened. (In some cases, historically, the pommel might be forged and heated so that it expands. It is placed over the tang and allowed to air-cool, thereby contracting and securing a tight hold on the tang. The wood comprising the grip is carved in relief and added as a final step.)



A tang will ideally be one third to one half (or more if feasible) the width of the blade, though historically they were approximatley one third the width at the blade shoulder (where the tang joins with the blade). The cross guard will ideally be tightly fitted to help support the blade shoulder from lateral stresses - a poorly designed sword can place so much stress on the tang that it may compromise the sword and cause this area to bend or break.

In some cases which cannot be seen unless the sword is taken apart, the tang is a "rat tail" which is a thin, round bar of steel with a threaded end is welded to the blade shoulder. The threaded end allows the pommel (or a pommel nut) to be screwed on to fasten the hilt to the blade. While welds can be very strong and though this may be acceptable for certain knives, bear in mind that a sword is by nature a different instrument than a knife and cannot be made like a larger knife; the weight and force dynamics at work in movement as well as the stresses of use require (1) a tang that is wide enough to endure and absorb impact shock, and (2) will not bend nor break off.

Lateral stresses can cause rat tails to break off due to a concentration of force on so small an area. Some sword hilts have literally broken off swords - they look superb but they don't function quite as well. (Prior to purchasing a sword, be sure to obtain a photograph of the sword blade prior to assembly.)

Another problem with poorly made swords is loose hilts. In some cases, the grip of the hilt is bourne through with a lathe such that the hole is circular. Yet the tang is rectangular or square. In some cases the grip can move around the tang if the sword is rotated briskly left and right.

Some hilts are poorly wrapped. Some manufacturers do not use wood but instead use leather or parachute cord or cotton rope and give the handle a spiral wrap which (1) does not provide for an ergonomic grip, and (2) can come loose. In some cases, the handle wrap is resin-impregnated or epoxied but this may end up being uncomfortable when hands become sweatty. Some swords feature a twisted wire wrap over leather or ray skin. These handles can have "channels" for the wire so that the wire does not come into much contact with the hand. With poorly-made swords, however, there are no such depressions for the wire and thus can cause one's hold on the grip to be most uncomfortable. Handle wraps comprising all wire where the wire is thin can become very uncomfortable to the hands as well.



That is not to suggest that the rat-tail tang is weak, just that you may have created a handle which forces you to hold the khuk differently; i.e., that instead of "snapping" the blade down at the last nano-second, while holding it with your thumb and forefinger, you are forced to grip the entire handle and thus are feeling the vibration that always existed, but which now is transmitted to your hand/arm.


Dunno.

I repeat:

wacherass
 
Kismet said:
That is not to suggest that the rat-tail tang is weak, just that you may have created a handle which forces you to hold the khuk differently; i.e., that instead of "snapping" the blade down at the last nano-second, while holding it with your thumb and forefinger, you are forced to grip the entire handle and thus are feeling the vibration that always existed, but which now is transmitted to your hand/arm.

Just what I was going to say...



But before making judgment, I would like to know what kind of wood it is....(did I miss it in the previous posts?)
 
Dave said it was madrona wood Dan. I think that's the same as what we call madrone out here. My sole experience with it is a couple of cords worth in the fireplace over the last few years. Pretty hard, tough stuff. I'll bet it transmits vibration just as well as hard red oak.

Norm
 
I'm not sure what Dave secured the handle with, but is it possible that a different adhesive might make a difference in the transmitted vibration? i.e. Laha to JB Weld or some other modern epoxy.


mike
 
Hey Mike,

if the handle is firmly affixed, it should not make much difference. Laha dries hard and brittle, but relaxes with heat and flows. But in normal temperatures, it is rigid.

Some vibration transmission might vary, but not to the extent to which Dave refers.

Also, the M43, which Dave said is heavier, would absorb, or resist, vibration to a greater extent than a thinner siru.

Dunno.
 
No idea what's going on.

Wood's madrona, secured with JB Weld. The fit was tight enough that the handle had to be tapped on with a hammer. (Not beaten on...tapped on.) The fact is, I changed nearly everything: shape of the buttcap, shape of the handle, handle material, different adhesive, shortened the tang...even the bolster was extensively modified. It would be hard to point a finger at any one variable but if I had to, I'd guess that it's the wood.

It certainly felt springy before I mounted it up. :confused:

I'll work the siru up to full speed slowly.
 
Kismet, Okay, thanks for clarifying that for me. I've never done anything like that, so I've got a plethera of questions, and that was one of them.

mike
 
David of the Satoris,

For some reason, a little voice in the back of my mind (probably the persona of a dead ancestor) KNEW exactly what was going on with your knife.

He said "it needs a bigger, heavier buttcap: more metal on the bottom."

honestly, I dont know if he is right, but I had to pass on the message.
 
There are lots of variables that could be the cause of the vibration. I don't know how important the ergonomics of the traditional khuk handle is but it could be more than we know since it is thousands of years old.
I doubt the type of wood has anything to do with it as the kamis use an assortment of hard woods ranging from slightly hard to very hard.
It's also not known how much of a damper the laha or epoxy has in isolating vibration but that could be an issue since the handle was "tapped" on instead of sliding freely.

And it may be as Kismet has said and has already been quoted...;) :D
Kismet said:
That is not to suggest that the rat-tail tang is weak, just that you may have created a handle which forces you to hold the khuk differently; i.e., that instead of "snapping" the blade down at the last nano-second, while holding it with your thumb and forefinger, you are forced to grip the entire handle and thus are feeling the vibration that always existed, but which now is transmitted to your hand/arm.
 
Thanks all for the advice.

I'm beginning to think that it may be more than just my assembly methods or the wood. There's no shortage of discussions over at SFI dealing with all the forces at work in a swung sword and how design affects harmonics and such. Most of it is over my head, of course.

The new handle is longer and is shaped differently. The tang is slightly shorter. The bolster has moved up an inch, as has the handle. All of this together noticably affected the center of balance. Did this hose up the khuk's harmonics? Possibly.

Danny, your recommendation seems correct to me...I couldn't tell you why, but it seems like a good idea. Unfortunately it's no longer feasible to do this. I'd probably have to grind the butt cap off at this point. It's on permanently.

Anyway, I'll work it up slowly and maybe the problem will take care of itself when everything gets broken in. We'll see. It's mainly a brush buster anyway so transmitted shock isn't too much of an issue.
 
Dave Rishar said:
Thanks all for the advice.

<chop> I'd probably have to grind the butt cap off at this point. It's on permanently.

Anyway, I'll work it up slowly and maybe the problem will take care of itself when everything gets broken in. <hack>

You not want khukuri? I take. ;) :rolleyes: ;) :foot:
 
Funny jmings........... :D

Hey David now maybe you can try to make it a 2 hander that Dannyinjapan has wanted. ;)
 
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