DC motor questions

synthesist

So many knives so little time
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Messages
933
For many years I've had a Bader II 2x72 belt grinder (customized by Tim Wright :thumbup: ) with a 1hp DC Westinghouse C face motor running off a custom made controller (made by my father-in-law :thumbup: who was an MIT graduate Electrical Engineer who worked on power systems for steel mills, alas he passed away) . There are times I wish this grinder had more oooomph. Perhaps an upgrade to a 2hp DC motor is in order. I know the controller can take it. Having variable speed has ruined me for anything else. I scowl at my one speed wood cutting bandsaw frequently.

Anyway, I am so confused :rolleyes: by how motors are designated; frame sizes, face sizes, amperage ac and dc - this is all Greek to me. If I knew how to pose the query I'd go google this but I have no clue what to ask. Is there a chart somewhere explaining motor/frame/face sizes and the accompanying technical data? I don't want to, necessarily, get another grinder, just improve this one.

Thanks

Syn
 
Syn I don't know much about frame sizes really but if you go to the Baldor web site they have a page that will help explain it to you. I agree you are underpowered w/ a 1 HP motor. I am in the process of upgrading my 1 1/2 Hp to a 3. Is your motor mounted by the face or have a standard mount? Frame size should not matter really as long as you have the HP needed and a way to mount it.
 
C-Face is the critical part of your equation. Make sure the shaft dia is the same as well as the mating surfaces, and bolt circle. Check out Bader's web site and see if they may have any info on what motor will work on your machine.
Chuck
 
Yup it's bolted (4 good sized bolts) on through the face.

I'm thinking 2hp would be just ducky and that I'll hit the right one at the right price on eBay or Craigslist eventually.

I also have 3 treadmill motors and 2 mystery motors (very well made, cast aluminum heatsinks but no spec plates so I'm gonna have to research them) that I am saving for other projects:

1) Horizontal disk grinder(s)
2) Bandsaw upgrade (questionable but possible)
3) Horizontal belt grinder

Any other wild idea on what to use these for?

Thanks for the tips and ideas btw. I will check both Bader's and Baldor's sites

Syn
 
Syn -

honestly rated 2-HP TEFC DC motor will cost a small fortune.
I recommend instead to consider going with 3 Phase and VFD.

Most DC motors have perm magnets inside that just love to pull
in anything metal - so if you end up using treadmill motor, you
will need to protect is well.
 
Permanent magnets huh! H'mmmmmm, interesting. I will keep that in mind. Thanks for the heads up on that.

3 Phase sounds VERY expensive also................this is a hobby and I my shop is in my basement. Kind of a tossup there, switch to 3 phase and buy a cheaper motor and the accompanying electronics/wiring or dig up the $$$ for an "honestly rated 2-HP TEFC DC motor". 6 of 1 half dozen of another.

I think I'll keep watching eBay and Craigslist for a C face 2hp dc motor I think. Meanwhile I'll suffer with this..........

I will check out the Leeson, Baldor and Reliance sites for the tech info I want also. I appreciate all the ideas gentlemen.

Syn
 
DC motors get very expensive once you go above the 1 to 1-1/2 hp size. If you were to buy a 2hp motor new...expect to spend about $800-1200.

A 3ph VFD set-up will run much less for the complete system and offer more in my opinion...mainly that AC induction motors are maintainace free and have somewhat of an infinite life. When the beraings get loud, you replace them and it's a new motor again. DC motors on the other hand, becuase of the brushes and commutator, are perishable. The more you run them, the more they wear...and eventually, after replacing the brushes enough...the motor is headed for the scrap heap.

VFDs offer a wide range of motor protection features that are not typical on DC drives...such as over current and thermal overload.

Keep your fingers crossed in the used and surplus market. There's no telling what you might stumble across. Sometimes the search is 1/2 the fun!!

Good luck with your project!!


-Rob
 
This all makes me appreciate my deceased father-in-law, Frank Mezzatesta, all the more. When he and Tim Wright teamed up to make me the best belt grinder they could with parts that were already on hand, I was stunned by what I was given. Tim had a spare Bader frame and customized it with a massively built, very adjustable tool rest. My father-in-law got the motor from a Westinghouse scrap bin for free and built the controller from a perfectly serviceable, but scrapped nonetheless, Chicago Transit Authority 660v elevated train speed controller (you wouldn't believe the amount of copper in that). That was perhaps 15 years ago. This machine has served me well all this time. Now I feel like I need more oomph. I may need to just dig in and buy a new, more powerful machine. Would that be a KMG? Probably.

BTW I'm not sure I can even get 3 phase power where I am. I know less then nothing about industrial power except I don't have it and the converters look expensive and big to me. I may be COMPLETELY off base here. I do know there seem to be lots of 3-5hp 3 phase motors around at reasonable prices so I can understand what Rob was getting at.

Perhaps I'll continue to search for a solid, used 2hp C face DC Motor anyway.

Thanks everyone..............

Syn
 
No need for 3 phase power. The VFD will run on standard single phase power right in your shop. Then it generates the 3 phase power to run the motor.....so it is also a "phase convertor" by taking in your 1 phase and putting out 3 phase.
 
OOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my.................

This is getting muuuuuuuuuuuch more interesting now.

Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you

So I can just buy the correct VFD and a C faced 3 phase motor 2-3hp under 15 amps@230v and I'm good to go? Dayum! That sounds so good. Almost too easy............... Am I missing something here? How much money are we talking about do ya suppose?

Wow I just realized I could move my current motor and controller to my woodcutting bandsaw and solve my problems there at the same time. Yeahhhhhhhhhhh baby.

Syn
 
Syn,

that's precisely right ! :)

I'd stick with 2HP - that's more than plenty for anything. The VFD will take
in single phase 220V-240V circuit (20A breaker and proper gage wires are a must) and produce variable frequency 3 phase output . Both VFD and 3 phase motors are extremely efficient so you will have around 90% of consumed power available at the belt.

VFD are really affordable for under 2HP, so are the motors.

I recommend you buy both from a local supplier, for a few extra bux, and enjoy lifetime of free support/advice etc. Motor will need to be TEFC and
you need to protect the VFD too - some come in NEMA4 enclosure (dust proof and washable), some might be mounted in one, as long as there's a provision for cooling.
 
........So I can just buy the correct VFD and a C faced 3 phase motor 2-3hp under 15 amps@230v and I'm good to go? Dayum! That sounds so good. Almost too easy............... Am I missing something here? How much money are we talking about do ya suppose?
..................Syn

Look around the surplus and used markets...you might be able to steal one for next to nothing. When all else fails...I have them in stock.

BIII-2hp-VS.jpg


This is the standard Variable Speed Conversion package for Bader and Wilton Square wheel grinders. 1-1/2 or 2 hp. TEFC 3450 rpm 56-C motor, Wash Down enclosed VFD with exterior analog controls for power on/off, start/run/stop and Speed. You also get a Bracket, connectors, cord and cables glands. These packages are $849.
 
Syn,

Rob's suggestion on going with a VFD is right on! Only way to go, IMHO.

However, not all VFD's will run with single phase input. Many will, but not all.
If you go with one of the units that Rob sells then you're all set. If you get one else where just make sure it will run on your single phase shop voltage.
(I have a couple of friends that have his KMG grinders and VFD's and they run great).

If you are going to go to a larger motor then 2 hp is the way to go. When I first got my KMG a few years ago I ran it on a 1 1/2 hp DC drive/motor. It seemed a little under powered and it was fairly easy to stall it, so I went to a 2 hp AC motor and VFD. It seems like a totaly different grinder with all the power I could ever need.

By the way, Rob (Beaumontmetalworks.com) is a great guy to deal with!

Just my .02

-Mike-
 
Some VFD's are designed to give full rated output power when connected to a single-phase supply and some need a three-phase supply to provide full output power. Read the spec sheets carefully. If it does not say that it will work with a single-phase input, it most likely won't.

VFDs that are only meant to be connected to a three-phase supply can still be used with a single-phase supply but you will only be able to get 57% of the rated output power, without risk of damaging it. Therefore, if you want to run a 2 hp motor from a three-phase input only VFD, you must use one that is rated at least 1.7 times larger than the rating of your motor, say 3.5 hp or greater. The larger VFD usually does not cost 1.7 times more. I am also seeing a trend towards more and more of the small (under 5 hp) VFD's being single-phase capable.

I strongly suggest mounting the VFD in a clean area well away from your grinder with on/off switches and a speed pot mounted in a handy location close your grinder. That is what the industrial users of VFDs typically do. It will probably only cost you another $20-40 or so for these extra parts. Metal dust getting on these parts should not make your VFD blow up unlike when it gets into the VFD itself. I believe that I have indicated suitable suppliers and their part numbers in some previous post. You will have to read the manual to see how this is done. The wiring to the switches and speed pot are typically all low voltage so there should be no danger to you. If you need help with this, send me an e-mail indicating the make and model of your VFD and where to download a copy of the manual.

If you insist on mounting your VFD where it will be exposed to metal dust, buy one of the ones that Rob Frink sells and save yourself a lot of heartache. These are about double the cost of one that is not dust/splash proof. I have never heard of anyone with a VFD, that was designed to be dust/splash proof, blowing up due to exposure metal dust. It takes a lot of R&D time to make a piece of electrical equipment dust/splash proof. I used to work at a company that made such drives but it has since been shut down by the new owners.

Please, please, please do not mount a VFD (or DC drive) that is not rated Nema4 or IP54 (dust/splash proof) near any source of metal dust such as your grinder. If you do, the metal dust will get inside and will cause a catastrophic failure of the VFD. Quite a few people on this forum have had that happen to them already. I know some people have gotten away with doing this for a while now but it is just a matter of time before their VFD blow up. Most manufacturers consider VFD's below about 5 hp to be disposable and are not set up to repair them. If the manufacturer does take it back on warranty, they will most likely notice the metal dust and will most likely void your warranty. In any event, the damage is typically so extensive that you will have to replace most of the guts. Contrary to what some people have said, you will not be able to get parts from Radio Shack to repair your VFD.

Stay safe and have fun.

Phil
 
How fitting that I should run across this post today. I have three grinders in the shop. Two non-vari, and one older Bur King with 1.5hp vari. I do find the 1.5 t be a bit underpowered time to time. I picked up the phone and had a talk with RFink. I ordered the 2 HP vari set up he offers for the BIII. Now that dreaded wait! My old bader is the DC set-up. The new one for the bader coming from Rob is the AC with VFD. Looking forward to using it. I'll post the results in a couple of weeks. Needless to say, as has been said many times before, Rob Fink is a pleasure to do business with. Thanks Rob! He Rob, here is just a sampling of what I'll be doing with it! Mike
Lovett_NYSset-wpcibycoopppppppppppp.jpg
 
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