Dealers posting in the For Sale By Individual forum

[Gollnick]

I've noticed a couple closed recently because the posters are technically dealers. Now, I realize that this is the "for sale by individual" forums and we don't want dealers abusing this form by posting advertising for their regular business. I appreciate the efforts of our moderators to keep this place from turning into a mess of dealer ads.

But, sometimes a dealer has a single, unusual knife that they're wanting to sell. The for sale by dealer forum is generally associated with stock stuff. I'll look there for a Benchmade AFCK, for example. But I probably wouldn't look there for a rare Benchmade Model 69.

So, what if some dealer is cleaning out his stock room and finds a 69 that fell behind the shelf many years ago? This dealer now has one special knife that is not part of his regular inventory, that is not a stock item. It's a special piece. He'd be better off trying to sell it here in the individual forum because this is where, I think, most collectors look for special pieces.

Of course, this leaves a lot of room for abuse. I know that one of the dealers who's thread got closed recently has been abusive in the past. But, perhaps we can judiciously allow dealers to use the individual forum for special exception situations? Could we, for example, allow dealers to post here if the knife is truely unique (one of a kind) or if it is say three or more years out of production? Could we come up with some sort of workable set of rules along these lines?

It's just a thought. I think we've all recently seen examples outside of bladeforums of how "zero tolerance" rules aren't always the best answers to problems.

(BTW, this tread is, of course, off topic for this

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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing! http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick

 

[Boriqua]

I find plenty of one or tow of a kind customs in the "For sale by Dealers" forums. Hammerhead, proedge, knifeart and a few others that have had two polowskies or three grecos and so on. I check that forum every day three times a day. HAmmerheads has me convinced I need a greco as soon as the funds clear. There is a place for them and I think as long as it was provided they should use it. If that forum didnt exsist I might agree but so long as they have there own place to hawk there wares I would rather just have the "Individual" be me an my fellow forumities.

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ALex

http://home.att.net./~a.boriqua

 

[mpayne]

But have you noticed how many "new" individuals there are now selling in that folder, with a "low" number of posts? One guy is selling 2 Blackie Collin Sidewinders, even has a serrated version? This stuff did not fall off his shelf! Guy even has a website that says "more on the way". Snif,snif, sniff...I'm beginning to smell something here........ gosh, perhaps a dealer?
http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikepayn

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Knives & Things
Mike Payne

[This message has been edited by mpayne (edited 03-06-2000).]

 

[JH225]

I have said this before both on the forums and in private E-mail to abusers/non-informed people.

Being a small dealer, I will post in the Individual for Sale Forum ONLY if the knife I am selling is part of my PERSONAL COLLECTION. I will also state in the post that the knife came from my collection just so that people are aware of this. If the knife has come from my collection it has been either paid for with non-business funds or has been traded for with other members. Therefore, I consider it to be an individual knife, not a dealer item.

I feel that this is the proper way to approach this matter, and there are a few others who do it this way also.

Wait until the knives I am starting to make are ready to sell, then I will really be confused

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "


[This message has been edited by Jailhack (edited 03-06-2000).]

 

[Brian_Turner]

I think that Mike and Spark deserve the time and (possibly) mistakes that it takes for them to transition BF into a money maker (or at least not a money loser).

For all of the money they've spent providing free advertising/market awareness for dealers, a few weeks of growing pains should be acceptible.

We should all be aware by now that the BF proprietors are willing to listen and learn, rather than setting a rule in stone on day one and riding it into the ground. If it turns out that a more effective way of running the For Sale forums exists, I'm confident that they'll quickly implement it.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."

 

[Spark]

Neither Mike nor myself have time to monitor the Knives For Sale: Individual forum for "special exceptions", and I don't want to open the door for abuse - we've already seen 4 dealers post in the wrong forum thinking that the rules somehow don't apply to them.

If a dealer has a knife he found or a used knife from his personal collection, he can sell it in the Dealer forum with the rest. Just say "RARE" or "USED" and put appropriate descriptions and prices in there. Trust me, it will still sell.

Buyers, I said it before, and I'll say it again - if a dealer is unwilling to pay to support this site and keep it free for you guys, then I don't think you should support them.

I'm halfway tempted to make a few dealers moderators of the Knives For Sale: Individual forum. Since they are paying to advertise, they'd be pretty motivated to make sure no one is abusing the Individual forum...

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

 

[Chief]

Originally posted by Spark:

If a dealer has a knife he found or a used knife from his personal collection, he can sell it in the Dealer forum with the rest. Just say "RARE" or "USED" and put appropriate descriptions and prices in there. Trust me, it will still sell.

Would love to do as you suggest Spark but this is not possible as you need a password to post in the "Dealer for Sale" forum. I sent you an E-mail asking for Rules of Engagement on this very topic and have not received a reply.

I think it is fine to post in the "For Sale Individual" forum even if you are a dealer as long as you are selling from your personal collection and state as such. Jim O'Young does it and does not get chastised.



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Chief’s Cutlery and Web Design Specializing in Microtech Knives

 

[UW Mitch]

I think Jum O'Young can do it because he ISN'T a dealer, he IS a small manufacturer. Jim only sells Speed-tech knives, so all other knives he has are presumably bought on the open market.

Since Mike and Spark have said NO DEALERS AT ALL then that's what it will be. If you're a dealer and can't post in the Dealer section, you need to buy a password

and support the sight.

~Mitch

[This message has been edited by UW Mitch (edited 03-07-2000).]

 

[Howling Moose]

Well, guys...I'm really confused.

Admittedly, I may not be ready to compete with the dealers who have been up & running for awhile...or BIG dudes with a lower price on every item. So, in a short time, I will likely choose to pony up the $50...At present, though, I was told by a "high authority"

that I couldn't list ANY blades in the individual section...not ones I buy from forum members, at gun shows, in the paper, from my Aunt Gerdie, new, used, carried, buried...ZIP, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA! I have a slew of blades in the old "sock drawer" (like an EDI Gen 1, a BM 950 SBT, Wegner Jr., SOG Tech 1...all bought at retail price (plus tax)or from Forum buddies...that I carried a few times, put away and finally figured it wasn't the proper carry for me. Granted, they ain't new...but they'll serve SOMEBODY well...and some of the people I have bought from on the Forum look for those "personal posts"...it's like buying a year old car, after the depreciation is worn off...GOOD DEALS. So what's the scoop - it reads like this..."OK., but if it's listed "new" or it's obvious you're trying an end run, you get the boot." ??? Is this a fair reading? or no?

Howling Moose

 

[Dew]

Mitch,
I think your message reads like you're also disagreeing with yourself ?

I agree what Spark said above. Hammerhead and MJS are among the dealers that support the site and still give us good price.

Dew.

 

[Cougar Allen]

"(BTW, this tread is, of course, off topic for this "

Yeah, it belongs in TGBU where the people involved will see it. We've had some discussion of the issue already and more would be welcome.

We have not as yet come up with a very firm consensus on just what should go in the Dealers forum and what in the Individuals forum. IMHO it would be pretty unreasonable to expect Spark to enforce guidelines we haven't defined. Even when we do come up with some guidelines we can't expect Spark to take the main burden of enforcing them, he has too much to do already.... IMHO posting that Spark should do something is not going to be very productive; it's up to the members to form some kind of consensus first, and IMHO posts in this forum are not going to be seen by too many of the people who should be involved.

-Cougar :{)

 

[Knife Outlet]

I think the general forum should be free of commercial interests. The Exchange section of Blade Forums provides plenty of places to buy and sell things and people who want to buy and sell things should go there. I think the general forum should be a place to make general knife comments and ask and answer general knife questions. Anyone, dealer or otherwise should be able to do this. The selling should go elsewhere in my opinion, since there is a place already set up for it. Take care.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com

 

[truedge]

Originally posted by mpayne:
But have you noticed how many "new" individuals there are now selling in that folder, with a "low" number of posts? One guy is selling 2 Blackie Collin Sidewinders, even has a serrated version? This stuff did not fall off his shelf! Guy even has a website that says "more on the way". Snif,snif, sniff...I'm beginning to smell something here........ gosh, perhaps a dealer? END QUOTE

Well Mike, I guess you have found me out. I have two of the same knives so I am obviously a dealer. Had you paid a little more attention, you would have realized that the website you proclaimed was mine, was actually Blackie Collins' website which I graciously supplied to give people information about his new knife.

I also have six Randall #1s which I may sell. If I try and sell them all at one time I guess that would make me a distributor or at least by your standards a "big dealer". I guess I shouldn't try and sell two knives at once for 75 bucks each. Just a little too much entrepreunural spirit I suppose.

Do I sell knives--yes. Do I buy knives--yes.
Do I trade knives--yes. I have even been known on occasion to use one.

The only transaction I have made since coming into this forum was to purchase a Randall #12 9" from Danbo. I guess I am one helluva dealer.

Mike, go find a real burr to put under your saddle.

And Danbo, if you are looking, your money order mails tomorrow. That is of course if you will still stoop to doing business with a "dealer."




[This message has been edited by truedge (edited 03-07-2000).]

 

[RGR]

Friends, I am one of the small dealers shut out by this new policy. I might consider getting a banner if I saw evidence it paid off. That evidence will have to come from other friends I have made since coming on line who are jumping in with a new banner.

Today was the first day I logged on since this all happend. The first thing I noticed was the increase in indivduals selling posts.
So I suspect someone is fudging somewhere. All I can say to this is life aint fair.

The other comment I could make as an FFL holder: if the U.S. Govt cant decide CLEARLY what constitutes a gun dealer (Their regs have many grey areas} why would anyone here think a clear, set in stone policy can apply to knife sellers? Ron Ryder

 

[Mike Turber]

A word from the "Cheif" whiner

I will try and set a policy which is fair to all concerned.

Yes, there are people abusing the system.
Yes, dealers should be able to sell what is actually "private stock".
Yes, I will start making money off this site to pay the bills and I will whine whenever and wherever I damn well please

Good night

Look for a policy by Friday. I am tired (from whining all day)

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
Show Your Support -Visit Our Sponsors - Click On The Banners!

 

[David1967]

Does it really mean that "dealers" cannot post in Knives for sale/trade Individual forum even if the knives they are selling are their own?? If this is true I will have to visit Dealers for sale forum more often to look for good deals. So far I have lived under impression that the Dealer forum is there to announce new products or those in stock.

On the other side - how can you prevent such a dealer to register and sell his personal knives under another name?? That is what I would do.

David

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DIVERTI NESCIO

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My Photopoint pictures

 

[JH225]

I have sent E-mail to Spark on this matter with no reply, so I will post my thoughts here.(And yes Spark/Mike I realize you have been very busy lately)

.

Myself and a couple of others have been posting PRIVATELY owned knives in the Individual For Sale Forum for quite some time now. Anytime that I post a knife in that forum I make sure that I write that the knife is from my personal collection so there will be no confusion.

Now along come some new guy's and start posting wherever they feel like and with no concern for the other dealers here. I think that that is wrong and also self serving. I have also conveyed that to a number of these people off line.

I am a very small dealer with NO Internet presence nor do I wish to have any. I sell mainly to fellow LEO's and a few other forum members and I do not make anywhere close to enough profit that I could afford to pay for a banner ad, nor should I have to, to sell my PERSONAL knives that were either obtained from other members or from friends.

I believe that if you are going to sell knives obtained for the purpose of re-selling, or state "Taking orders now, or "Only a few at this price", etc., you are selling only as a dealer and should shell out the money to post as such. But I have absolutely no problem with a dealer trying to sell a PRIVATELY owned knife in the individual forum.(After all, some dealers are knife knuts too!!)

This is very easy to police, and very obvious when the forum is being used incorrectly.

I am not trying to argue with anyone here, but I felt it was time to speak my mind (what little I have

).

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "

 

[Dennis Wright]

Somebody up there said that it would be unreasonable to expect Spark to enforce guidelines we haven't defined, or something to that effect. Well, Spark is the administrator and Mike is the owner of this site and they are the ones to set the guidelines, not us.

This isn't a communist organization where everyone owns everything and all people make the rules. We are not the "Peoples Republic of The Blade".

We don't establish the rules here, they do. It's their site. It's their business.

To succeed as a business the owner of that business has to have complete control or he will soon be in big trouble. He can't afford to let the customers set prices or policy or he'll be selling everything at 20% below cost. (I think some of the "dealers" are doing that now

.) To do so would be like letting the inmates run the assylum.

Having said that, it follows that it is, very much, to be expected that the owner and administrator do monitor and enforce the rules and regulations and policies of their site and no one else. After all it's their business.

We are customers who have been allowed to express our views and opinions here and that is all we can do. We can look for things we want and ask if anyone has them and we should be able to expect answers to our questions or requests but, if we want to go shopping, there is a place specifically set up for that.

A place has been established for those who have a few things to sell and/or just want to get rid of something, for whatever reason, to do that. To abuse that convenience is inappropriate. To register under another name and sell as an "individual" when you are a dealer is dishonest. (How much business would you want to do with a dishonest dealer?)

If you have a "personal" knife or other item that you want to sell, and you are a dealer, then put it with your stock and promote it like you would any other piece of inventory.
There is no such thing as "personal" inventory when you are a dealer in that type of merchandise. Ask any tax man.

This is the choice we make when we become dealers. We do it for profit and we make money off our business. Why shouldn't we pay "rent" on our "stores" we establish in here? Heck, even swap meets and flea markets charge for the spaces people use to sell junk.

We, as dealers have a choice. We can join in as participants of discussions and debates and leave the active selling to the merchants who pay for that right or we can pay the fee and "open our store" on the same street as the rest of the dealers.

Mike and Spark establish what a dealer is and enforce it. That is what they are getting paid to do. It's not a free ride for them either. It's their business. It's that simple.


DW
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Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
1-800-400-1980
("Have a knife day!")
wrightknife@ixpres.com

[This message has been edited by Dennis Wright (edited 03-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dennis Wright (edited 03-08-2000).]

 

[stab1]

Mike and Spark, Here is my two cents worth and it is probably worth about half of that but here goes anyway.

Why have 3 seperate For Sale Forums for Individuals, Dealers, and Makers. Have one forum For Sale. That way everyone is in the same ballpark and no one can whine about some fox invading their hen house. Every one is then in the same situation and the only thing that dictates their ability to move their wares is the Free Enterprise System. "If you got what someone wants and they want it bad enough they will buy it". This method works elsewhere and it can work here. There is really no need for the three areas to be seperate and be "Protected" from each other.

I would also submit that a small listing fee could be charged ($2.00-$3.00) that everyone that lists an item for sale would pay and this would help to support this site. That way the individuals that just want to read and post can still do so without a charge but anyone who is making some money off of the site can (and should) help you guys pay the bills.
Rs
Don

 

[JH225]

Dennis,

No one is saying that there is no need for rules to be set for buying/selling in the forums.

The fact is that there are no rules up to this point and it was always self administered with no problems. The problems started when a lot of new dealers started posting and were obviously abusing the forums.

You are a full time dealer with a storefront and may well be able to afford to pay for a banner ad. And I don't ever recall you posting a knife for sale in the individual forums. That is fine, but you also say that there is no such thing as a dealer having a "personal" knife. Would you care to explain how you came to this conclusion?

There are others here who purchase knives from individuals because they are knife knuts, not because they want them for their dealer stock.

If I purchased a knife with my own funds (not business funds) because I wanted that particular knife whether custom or production from a fellow forum member,(not a wholesaler) and I no longer wish to own that knife, you say that I should put that knife in my stock and sell it as inventory. How do you figure?

No one is saying that there should not be rules to live by, but don't insult mine or a few others who do as I have done intelligence with non-substantiated facts.

The fact remains that I DO purchase some knives for my PERSONAL collection and should be allowed to sell those knives in the same manner as I purchased them.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "