Dealers that do not ship to NY State

dutch_0311 said:
It is perfectly legal to buy and own almost any type of knife in NY, so the dealers should have no concern with selling and shipping here. It is the knife buyers responsiblity to know where he can carry a certain type of knife, not the dealers. If these knives were illegal, then why can large chains like Dick's Sporting Goods and even Walmart sell them? In fact, I just bought a Kershaw Leek (which has assisted opening) from Dick's about 5 days ago.

The knife dealers who refuse to sell and ship to NYS are borderline lazy as they refuse to do the proper research to determine the true legality behind NYS knife laws. If they did so, they would find that it is perfectly legal to buy, sell and ship these types of knives within NY. Again, it is the knife buyers responsibility where he can carry. NYC is truly a different world from the rest of the state and has it's own ordinances on blade length and carry. They are also using the the term "gravity knife", which is very vague in the Penal Law definition, to effect rediculous arrests. Myself being a Police Officer in NYS will very rarely speak poorly about another agency, but from some of the articles and videos I have seen of NYC police officers arresting your average "non-criminal" civilian because they think a Gerber Paraframe for example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oe-C-9MYVc) is a gravity knife is rediculous and their moronic District Attorney actually supports these arrests.

Also, what about Law Enforcement Officers like myself who have no knife restrictions whatsoever. Why do these dealers refuse sale/shipment to us? Shame on you Emerson Knives Inc. and all of the dealers who have followed suit in this rediculous boycott. I understand that you are just trying to protect your own interests, but is that worth losing loyal customers because your "unsure" of a state's exact laws and policies?
Click to expand...
Dutch, you are contradicting yourself.
At first you say it's not the dealers responsibility to know the laws, then you call them lazy for not knowing them.
In reality, it is the dealers responsibility to know the laws and not ship restricted items where they are illegal. Many sites have disclaimers stating it is the customers responsibility....but this actually does not absolve them of their responsibility in the eyes of the judicial system. Even with such a disclaimer they still stand to be prosecuted if they happen to get caught.

Just because walmart and DSG sell an item doesnt always mean that the item is legal. It only means that someone didnt check before ordering. Both companies have had to pull knives from their shelves after discovering that they have ordered in a potentially restricted item.

In actuality, it is not the NYC DA supporting the officers arrests, it is the NYC DA who has instigated this whole mess and the officers are doing their job as directed by the chain of command.

As a law officer, you are not without restrictions on knife carry. You must obey all laws as any other citizen does and must adhere to any policy on knife carry that you agency has. This includes getting written permission from your superiors before carrying any type of automatic, for example.

I don't blame the dealers for not wanting to ship here. I wouldnt want the legal hassles either. I put the blame where it is due, on the heads of DA Vance and his cronies. Unfortunately, it looks like the DA is not going to back down until this matter ends up in large enough court to resolve the issue. Until then anybody is fair game.
Again. The best way to fight this is to join and support AKTI and kniferights in their fight for our rights.
 
I'm not saying its the dealer's responsibility to NOT know the laws, I'm saying that it is the buyer's responsibility to know where they can and can't carry them. If I sell a folding knife to someone and they get caught with it in a restricted area, that wouldnt make me (the seller) responsible. What I don't think your understanding is that there is ABSOLUTELY no laws in NYS prohibiting distributors from selling pocket knives (other than certain restrictions on automatic or double edged blades).

As far as your statement that a police officer is held to the same standards as regular civilians is WRONG. If you don't believe me you can read the NYS Penal Law - Article 265.20 Sub1(a) referencing excemptions. Not to mention your speaking to an active NYS Police Officer in which your trying to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about when I enforce the laws everyday. Where you got the information that a LEO needs written authorization to carry an automatic knife is absurd. I can walk into any store in NYS and buy not only any automatic knife, but any handgun as well on my badge and police ID alone. I know this because this is how I purchased three of my handguns and four separate automatic knives that I own.

Whatevers going on in the NYC area is not the case where I am from (south central NYS). I take all kinds of different pocket knives (and sometime large fixed blades) off of people on a daily basis and return them whenever the investigation is over, granted I did not place them under arrest for whatever reason. Never once have I even had the slightest inclination to try and conjur up an absurd weapon's charge for a pocket knife.




Karda said:
Dutch, you are contradicting yourself.
At first you say it's not the dealers responsibility to know the laws, then you call them lazy for not knowing them.
In reality, it is the dealers responsibility to know the laws and not ship restricted items where they are illegal. Many sites have disclaimers stating it is the customers responsibility....but this actually does not absolve them of their responsibility in the eyes of the judicial system. Even with such a disclaimer they still stand to be prosecuted if they happen to get caught.

Just because walmart and DSG sell an item doesnt always mean that the item is legal. It only means that someone didnt check before ordering. Both companies have had to pull knives from their shelves after discovering that they have ordered in a potentially restricted item.

In actuality, it is not the NYC DA supporting the officers arrests, it is the NYC DA who has instigated this whole mess and the officers are doing their job as directed by the chain of command.

As a law officer, you are not without restrictions on knife carry. You must obey all laws as any other citizen does and must adhere to any policy on knife carry that you agency has. This includes getting written permission from your superiors before carrying any type of automatic, for example.

I don't blame the dealers for not wanting to ship here. I wouldnt want the legal hassles either. I put the blame where it is due, on the heads of DA Vance and his cronies. Unfortunately, it looks like the DA is not going to back down until this matter ends up in large enough court to resolve the issue. Until then anybody is fair game.
Again. The best way to fight this is to join and support AKTI and kniferights in their fight for our rights.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
dutch_0311 said:
As far as your statement that a police officer is held to the same standards as regular civilians is WRONG. If you don't believe me you can read the NYS Penal Law - Article 265.20 Sub1(a) referencing excemptions. Not to mention your speaking to an active NYS Police Officer in which your trying to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about when I enforce the laws everyday. Where you got the information that a LEO needs written authorization to carry an automatic knife is absurd. I can walk into any store in NYS and buy not only any automatic knife, but any handgun as well on my badge and police ID alone. I know this because this is how I purchased three of my handguns and four separate automatic knives that I own.

Whatevers going on in the NYC area is not the case where I am from (south central NYS). I take all kinds of different pocket knives (and sometime large fixed blades) off of people on a daily basis and return them whenever the investigation is over, granted I did not place them under arrest for whatever reason. Never once have I even had the slightest inclination to try and conjur up an absurd weapon's charge for a pocket knife.
Click to expand...
Then you are from the same area i'm from. Most LEA's have procedure on the carrying of auto's and firearms for their agency. Especially here in NYS where auto's are illegal. Perhaps yours doesnt, is lax or you've failed to follow procedure. No LEO's are not held to the same standard as civilians.. they are held to a higher standard and they are bound by the same regulations in everyday life that we all must follow.

Actually i believe it is sub 1(b) or (c) that you meant to refer to.
 
Karda said:
Then you are from the same area i'm from. Most LEA's have procedure on the carrying of auto's and firearms for their agency. Especially here in NYS where auto's are illegal. Perhaps yours doesnt, is lax or you've failed to follow procedure. No LEO's are not held to the same standard as civilians.. they are held to a higher standard and they are bound by the same regulations in everyday life that we all must follow.

Actually i believe it is sub 1(b) or (c) that you meant to refer to.
Click to expand...


First off, I stand corrected, it is sub 1(b) that I was reffering to. Thank you for pointing that out. However, regardless of whether a police department has its own policies on the carry of automatic knives on duty does not effect the legality regarding an officer possessing that knife. The penal law very clearly states that a police officer can not be charged with criminal possession of a weapon for carrying an auto knife...period. Hence the reason that an officer can walk into any store in NYS that carries auto knives and purchase one on his badge.

Why a department would have a policy AGAINST the carry of auto knives sounds rediculous. An officer can carry a firearm along with an array of other potentially harmful instuments, but they can't carry an auto knife?? Haha, thats absolutely absurd. And why am I arguing with you over this issue anyways. Where does your expertise fall into play here when it comes to knowledge of the law, not to mention police department policy and procedures? Please enlighten me. Until then I'm done with the back and forth non-sense about what I do know and what you think you know or read somewhere.

I don't mean to sound condescending or arrogant sir, but I run into people everday who think they know the law or my department SOPs. 99.9% of the time they find out very quickly that they really dont know s**t. Maybe your a lawyer or something, in which case I will be more than happy to continue this debate. But until that is layed out onto the table, I'm done with it.

Now getting back to the actual topic of this thread. When it all comes down to it, with all the opinions and point of views set a side....there is no law against the carry of non-automatic pocket knives in NYS. The city has its own BS laws, but thats the city. The argument over what a "gravity knife" truly is has yet to be clearified. I can assure you that if you come to my city, and you have a non-auto pocket knife, that unless you have threatened somebody with it or used it in the commision of a crime, you will be just fine. And that goes for most cities in upstate NY.

As far as manufacturers and knife distributors declining to sell and ship to NYS, thats on them. But they have lost my business forever. They are making the whole state of New York pay for some non-sense thats going on in the city. As far as I'm concerned they can :jerk it:.
 
Last edited:
The real problem's with the judiciary. Judges that accept these cases are corrupt or incompetent. The core of the argument in favor of criminalizing possession of "gravity knives" hangs on the fact that their very character is purely offensive in nature. Possession of them is then considered intent to use them unlawfully. How that can be applied to knives that are possessed by millions of Americans both in and out of NY, without an accompanying crime wave shows how crooked this law is. The current standard is simply if the knife locks and can be opened with a snap of the wrist, it qualifies. This interpretation is slowly leaking out of the downstate area and into regions further North and West. I contacted the DAs office in Manhattan and was told that the statute is not ambiguous at all. If it locks when opened, and can be open with the snap of a wrist IT IS a gravity knife. They forwarded some case details of two recent convictions, one for what was clearly a liner lock. A former sales and manufacturing rep for Camillus took the stand for the defense with a detailed history of the military issue gravity knife and how it differs from the defendant's knife. When he was able to open the suspect knife with...a flick of his wrist, his testimony was shredded. Even with the pivot screw cranked down, many of my folders can still be opened with a spirited snap. If I can do it, so can a well practiced arresting officer. Never mind if I used it defensively. I could get nailed for possession even if my use of force was justified.

I've switched to a fixed blade for EDU. I don't believe any of the local PDs would hassle me for a folder, but I don't trust the State Police with this one.
 
The real distortion is thi substitution of "centrifugal force" for gravity. The original definition was for a knife that released the blade and saw it drop open by its own weight, no flicking or wrist action at all. Like an auto, this lent an element of the surreptitious to deployment. That is, an officer could be faced by a knife palmed, invisible to him, that required no more than a slight motion of one finger to release.

Now, gyrations equivalent to break-dancing with the knife are considered "gravity". It is all a sham, designed to add violation upon violation to intimidate the citizenry. And it works. Honest dealers cannot safely do business with NY residents, for fear of being set up. And I have abandoned all hope of returning to the city in which I was born and lived most of my life. I could leave my knives at home and still fear for whatever new legal imposture their fascist government might devise.

This cloud did have a sliver of silver lining, though. As you know, the "New York" knife shows have returned to New Jersey, where they were welcomed in style. :)
 
Hate to say it, but this is the result "Of the people, by the people." This is what happens when someone who don't know anything about the subject, makes laws regarding that subject. It is just as easy to use a kitchen knife to kill someone, as it is a folder/hunting/survival knife. Wooden forks & spoons (but no knives) may be in our future. Does this mean we can sue Ford/GM/Toyota/ect... if we get hit by a drunk in said vehicle make ? I think NOT !!!
 
Esav, I totally agree with your opinions of the NYC and NY issue, but I must say that the NJ State laws as written are really not too much better. I meet last week with a Captain from North Bergen PD on a few issues we have at one of our malls and as always I talked knife laws with him, and he was pretty much of the feeling that all knife carry is illegal in NJ. Unless you have a good reason, any knife is illegal to carry. I heard the same from a Woodbridge, NJ Commander a few months back when dealing with some issues at that mall and had the same talk. It maybe that the laws in NJ are not enforced to the same degree, but the laws are on the books .....
 
Thank GOD, that the sueing of gun mfg & car mfg was shot down. At least for now. Using that same mentality of thinking, then WE should be able to sue all the people who voted in favor of any law that prohibits us from protecting ourselves with a firearm or edged weapon, including the State of NY that sponsored it, shouls we become the victim of a crime. Makes sense to me.

Edit: on a side note, I just read that Henry is no longer made in Brooklyn NY. They moved thier plants to NJ & Wisconsin, according to the latest brochure i read anyway.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top