Defect in Blade?

[My Young Apprentice]

Dude, this video is epic. It has effectively doubled my knowledge of sharpening. Video's and anecdotal advice helps...but to get a video with your sharpening system and with the issues that you are specifically dealing with and how to take care of them? It's a huge help. That's to say nothing of the technique learned...I didn't really have any to begin with, but watching your video gives me a very good place to start. I did have a few questions though, out of curiosity.

1.My Little Apprentice? Lmao, there goes any credibility I had...combining my name with my little pony xD
2. I haven't stropped on anything, but I have been doing edge-trailing strokes on the fine side to get rid of the burr. I thought that was the same as stropping? And why newspaper then leather? Do the two different materials do two different things?

Rereading this makes me think I sounded insincere about the technique...i meant to say that I learned a lot from the video.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Hi, My Young Apprentice. I’m not a pro by any means, but I’ve been learning a lot lately, and I’m happy to share what I’ve learned. I hope this helps! I was sharpening a few knives today and came across the perfect candidate to illustrate this issue. Same problem: a warp on the straight segment of the blade. I sharpened it on the Norton Combo India stone but left the warp intact to illustrate for our purposes.

Here is the clean side of the blade after normal sharpening (coarse and then fine side of the stone):

Here is the warped side after the same sharpening. As you can see, the bevel was hardly even touched by the stones. You can still distinctly see the factory grind, and the edge was not sharp on those sections:

Here is the warped side after repair. You can see that the some of the gouges from the warp damage are still there, but the bevel is scratched with the final stone’s pattern, and the edge is now apexed:

Here is the video showing how I got those results:
[youtube]h9_3tdfnOWg[/youtube]

Mag, I had to go back and check out your last India stone video. Right off the bat I notice the stone is loading less, sounds and looks like like your pressure is much more subtle/controlled. Volunteering for the free sharpening service is paying well in other ways, your technique was quite good, become even better in a relatively short period of time. The India stone has slowly become my workhorse, replacing my Crystalon (SIC) for most of my stone work. I still have much to learn about getting the best from it but its worth spending time with - a very versatile stone. Good video as usual.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Hi, My Young Apprentice. I’m not a pro by any means, but I’ve been learning a lot lately, and I’m happy to share what I’ve learned. I hope this helps! I was sharpening a few knives today and came across the perfect candidate to illustrate this issue. Same problem: a warp on the straight segment of the blade. I sharpened it on the Norton Combo India stone but left the warp intact to illustrate for our purposes.

Here is the clean side of the blade after normal sharpening (coarse and then fine side of the stone):

Here is the warped side after the same sharpening. As you can see, the bevel was hardly even touched by the stones. You can still distinctly see the factory grind, and the edge was not sharp on those sections:

Here is the warped side after repair. You can see that the some of the gouges from the warp damage are still there, but the bevel is scratched with the final stone’s pattern, and the edge is now apexed:

Here is the video showing how I got those results:
[youtube]h9_3tdfnOWg[/youtube]

Mag is MAG. His tutorial even being stickied (chek it out)!

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Dude, this video is epic. It has effectively doubled my knowledge of sharpening. Video's and anecdotal advice helps...but to get a video with your sharpening system and with the issues that you are specifically dealing with and how to take care of them? It's a huge help. That's to say nothing of the technique learned...I didn't really have any to begin with, but watching your video gives me a very good place to start. I did have a few questions though, out of curiosity.

1.My Little Apprentice? Lmao, there goes any credibility I had...combining my name with my little pony xD
2. I haven't stropped on anything, but I have been doing edge-trailing strokes on the fine side to get rid of the burr. I thought that was the same as stropping? And why newspaper then leather? Do the two different materials do two different things?

Glad you enjoyed my write-up and vid. I've gotten a ton of help, suggestions, and even long, detailed vids on request from the fantastic guys on the MT&E forum, so I'm very happy and proud to be able to "pay it forward," as they say.

1. Sorry! heheh It just popped into my head while I was filming. I was thinking, "Oh, crap... what was his name? My something apprentice? Little? Yeah, that sounds right."

2. Edge-trailing strokes will get rid of the burr on the fine side, and someone with a masterful touch like knifenut can probably get a push-cutting edge off the fine side. But for us mere mortals, we can get *most* of the artifacts off the edge to the point where the edge is slicing newsprint or phone book paper cleanly. But to get it pushing, all the tiny, tiny artifacts have to be removed and the apex smoothed somewhat. The difference between the newspaper and the leather is the way it hits the edge and the abrasiveness. granted, both are very forgiving. But -- and someone correct me please if I'm talking out of my backside here -- newsprint has more silicates, I think, and needs to be laid on something. The backing will also affect how the newsprint works. If you lay it on a coarse surface or a glass surface, it will increase or decrease the aggressiveness of the silicates somewhat. Bare leather is both more forgiving (except you have to be careful of rounding the edge since leather has give) and less forgiving (if you don't have a burr-free, apexed edge, bare leather won't do much for you because it isn't aggressive enough to compensate for a crappy sharpening job the way black and green compounds can.). But if your edge is done correctly, finishing on bare leather will give the edge the extra "oomph," as you saw in my vid. After the leather, my edge was push-cutting newsprint.

3. No worries on your last post, bro. I know you were being sincere.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Mag, I had to go back and check out your last India stone video. Right off the bat I notice the stone is loading less, sounds and looks like like your pressure is much more subtle/controlled. Volunteering for the free sharpening service is paying well in other ways, your technique was quite good, become even better in a relatively short period of time. The India stone has slowly become my workhorse, replacing my Crystalon (SIC) for most of my stone work. I still have much to learn about getting the best from it but its worth spending time with - a very versatile stone. Good video as usual.

Thanks for the kind words, HH. I have to give credit where credit is due, though, and your write up in my first tutorial thread was definitely one of the best posts I've ever read; one of the ones that led me to an "aha" moment when sharpening finally clicked in my head and started to make sense. You obviously put an arse-ton of work into that post! I encourage everyone to read it. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, read post #9 in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...advice-for-newbie-knife-sharpeners-(freehand)

Mag is MAG. His tutorial even being stickied (chek it out)!

Maybe "special" or "+p" but not "magnum" yet. I consider "magnum" those traditional smiths in Japan who can tell what the performance characteristics of a blade will be and what percentage of carbon within 0.10% is in the steel just by holding the billet in their hand and looking at it. That is straight-up gangster.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Thanks a bunch, I still wish more folks had piled onto the thread - even verbal descriptions and the odd pic or video can go a long way toward helping people sort out what's going on and some of the ways to approach it.

I'll throw this out there for general consideration, mostly for Apprentice - be very wary of finishing edge-trailing on a hard stone. As a finishing technique this works best on a strop or waterstone, not so well on hard stones with a fixed abrasive like an India stone or diamonds. Reason being it is very difficult to do any grinding with a trailing stroke on a hard stone and not produce as much burr/unsupported metal than you remove - at least in my hands. I actually did a series of tests for Bluntcut to gauge the effects of leading vs trailing on an India stone - in my hands the leading strokes produced a cleaner edge when done with an India stone, trailing strokes visibly less so. Stropping on newspaper with polishing compound produced a much more unified edge. Stropping with plain newspaper put a polish on the edge while having the least smoothing of the grind teeth.

Back and forth works well for grinding but you might find that edge leading to conclude will actually improve the final edge coming off this stone, and switch to edge trailing for the finishing work on a conformable surface, or one with a loose abrasive.

Just a thought, YMMV.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Maybe "special" or "+p" but not "magnum" yet. I consider "magnum" those traditional smiths in Japan who can tell what the performance characteristics of a blade will be and what percentage of carbon within 0.10% is in the steel just by holding the billet in their hand and looking at it. That is straight-up gangster.

Those are masters indeed

You, however is a master in translating a complex sharpening concept to easily understood write up. I find it to be best for newbies to get the basic, and build on it. Like a building, a good foundation is the differentiating factor between solid lasting one and crap, even though most people won't notice it.

There are other masters here, like HH, Jason/KnifeKnut, David/OWE, Ken/Unit, and many others during the years I've been on the forum, but their skill are a bit far above if the basic is lacking.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Thanks a bunch, I still wish more folks had piled onto the thread - even verbal descriptions and the odd pic or video can go a long way toward helping people sort out what's going on and some of the ways to approach it.

I'll throw this out there for general consideration, mostly for Apprentice - be very wary of finishing edge-trailing on a hard stone. As a finishing technique this works best on a strop or waterstone, not so well on hard stones with a fixed abrasive like an India stone or diamonds. Reason being it is very difficult to do any grinding with a trailing stroke on a hard stone and not produce as much burr/unsupported metal than you remove - at least in my hands. I actually did a series of tests for Bluntcut to gauge the effects of leading vs trailing on an India stone - in my hands the leading strokes produced a cleaner edge when done with an India stone, trailing strokes visibly less so. Stropping on newspaper with polishing compound produced a much more unified edge. Stropping with plain newspaper put a polish on the edge while having the least smoothing of the grind teeth.

Back and forth works well for grinding but you might find that edge leading to conclude will actually improve the final edge coming off this stone, and switch to edge trailing for the finishing work on a conformable surface, or one with a loose abrasive.

Just a thought, YMMV.

Hi, HH. I did try to finish with edge-leading, but I was never satisfied with the results. What is the pressure game like for finishing with edge-leading? I'm guessing you're using ultra-feather-light strokes at the end. And I notice you use very short strokes, always in small sections. I might try that technique out, but it's completely different from the way I grind, and I dread the challenge of retraining my wrist muscles, but I might give it another go.

Those are masters indeed

You, however is a master in translating a complex sharpening concept to easily understood write up. I find it to be best for newbies to get the basic, and build on it. Like a building, a good foundation is the differentiating factor between solid lasting one and crap, even though most people won't notice it.

Thank you for the kinds words! For that stickied write-up, I had new sharpeners in mind while I was writing it, and really tried to put myself in their shoes. I asked myself, "How did I feel when I started sharpening?" "What was frustrating for me?" "What do I wish someone had explained to me when I started, and how do I wish they had explained it?" I hope some people got something out of it. I noticed in the responses to that thread that there were calls for a more advanced tutorial on things like pressure and refinement in sharpness, etc. I dread writing that for fear of writing a bunch of crap I don't fully understand myself! Buy maybe I'll give it a go after I've studied and learned more myself.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

HH,

Another additional insight ... Many thanks!

 

[My Young Apprentice]

Thanks a bunch, I still wish more folks had piled onto the thread - even verbal descriptions and the odd pic or video can go a long way toward helping people sort out what's going on and some of the ways to approach it.

I'll throw this out there for general consideration, mostly for Apprentice - be very wary of finishing edge-trailing on a hard stone. As a finishing technique this works best on a strop or waterstone, not so well on hard stones with a fixed abrasive like an India stone or diamonds. Reason being it is very difficult to do any grinding with a trailing stroke on a hard stone and not produce as much burr/unsupported metal than you remove - at least in my hands. I actually did a series of tests for Bluntcut to gauge the effects of leading vs trailing on an India stone - in my hands the leading strokes produced a cleaner edge when done with an India stone, trailing strokes visibly less so. Stropping on newspaper with polishing compound produced a much more unified edge. Stropping with plain newspaper put a polish on the edge while having the least smoothing of the grind teeth.

Back and forth works well for grinding but you might find that edge leading to conclude will actually improve the final edge coming off this stone, and switch to edge trailing for the finishing work on a conformable surface, or one with a loose abrasive.

Just a thought, YMMV.

Makes sense. The edge trailing strokes that I did were feather light, and I made sure to flip whenever the burr disappeared on the one side, until the burr was completely gone. But I haven't been using the blade much for real cutting since I've been out of a job for two weeks, (and I don't think my wife would appreciate me cutting things up in the house) so I haven't really gotten a good test of it, but I will test your advice. I'm probably leaving more needless abrasions on the blade than I need to, and if there is unsupported metal on there it could probably damage my blade.

Thank you for the kinds words! For that stickied write-up, I had new sharpeners in mind while I was writing it, and really tried to put myself in their shoes. I asked myself, "How did I feel when I started sharpening?" "What was frustrating for me?" "What do I wish someone had explained to me when I started, and how do I wish they had explained it?" I hope some people got something out of it. I noticed in the responses to that thread that there were calls for a more advanced tutorial on things like pressure and refinement in sharpness, etc. I dread writing that for fear of writing a bunch of crap I don't fully understand myself! Buy maybe I'll give it a go after I've studied and learned more myself.

This right here is why I love this forum so much. I've been trying to put in words how much I appreciated the video, but am having a hard time. I've been a part of many forums, but NONE of them have the personality of BladeForums. This place is completely unique. And in all of my lurking before posting, I haven't seen one belligerent a-hole that wasn't taken care of, or any needless insulting, or anything of that sort. Magnanimous, Heavy Handed, Richard J, Allen R.,
and all the other pro's who are on here, the fact that you guys take the time to teach us noobs how to sharpen and sharpen correctly instead of just wallowing in your skill is awesome

 

[HeavyHanded]

Hi, HH. I did try to finish with edge-leading, but I was never satisfied with the results. What is the pressure game like for finishing with edge-leading? I'm guessing you're using ultra-feather-light strokes at the end. And I notice you use very short strokes, always in small sections. I might try that technique out, but it's completely different from the way I grind, and I dread the challenge of retraining my wrist muscles, but I might give it another go.

Yeah, if you see in the vids I made using hard stones, I always finish very light edge-leading on hard stones with few exceptions. Pressure is very light - I've gotten to the point where the entire act of sharpening is a process and I do what I can to understand and control every phase - nothing is rote. For me, finishing edge leading is the act of complete (or theoretically complete) burr removal - the final step possible with a really hard stone. So pressure needs to be firm enough to remove the last bit of unsupported steel but lighter than it might take to flip the burr. This takes some observation as you go, because not all steels will be the same in this regard but always light. Just a question of the margin of error. I also plan on this and usually push it to the left side of the blade to finish as I have slightly better control grinding that side, tho am OK either way.

I didn't start out using those short movements, originally did full length sweeps the entire length of the blade and the stone- changed for a couple of reasons. I did some experiments using circular grinding with a very small loop - about the size of a dime or nickel. I ultimately didn't like the way the grind pattern cut, and was unable to completely remove the burr this way either but, my bevels were extremely flat and consistent the entire length of the bevel. I also realized I didn't have any way to sharpen larger blades like machetes without manufacturing huge "stones" using plexiglas and sanding belts (which I did) - not practical at all. I also had intermittent trouble going from profiles with deep bellies to flat edges, to Scandis to recurves etc - my methods were not comfortable across a wide range. Did more experimenting and combined with some adoption of Murray Carters philosophy of using the entire stone surface and 'scrubbing' technique on the 1k, slowly arrived at how I do it now, with a very short scrubbing motion. This does a couple of things for me - eliminates a lot of the wrist flexion/extension associated with longer strokes, and allows me to very closely monitor how much grinding I'm doing at any given point - I whip up a burr the size I want where I want it - don't have to tolerate the bevel dictating how large the burr is at various spots along the length. And when its time to remove it I'm less likely to push it over or generate a new burr on the opposite side if I'm only working right where I need to be.

I had several AHA moments when circular grinding - it took all of about 30-40 minutes for me to turn out bevels that were as good as or better than two decades of sweeping movements. In the same evening I was able to completely overprint the circular grind pattern with a linear one in about three passes, verifying the bevel was very consistent the entire length of the edge. Full length passes aren't even needed to unify the bevel, tho I will use them when stropping just out of convenience - and just as often I'll strop in section too. If one can hold a real tight bevel along a full sweep then you have better wrist control than me. Not that my edges were poor, but they weren't as consistent and neither was my process. Its a journey - you have nothing to loose by experimenting - it will only improve your fine motor dexterity and overall understanding.



Whether I finish leading or trailing depends on the stone/abrasive composition - if the abrasive is somewhat loose (like my lapping boards) and or the stone itself is 'soft' like with many waterstones, I'll finish with a few trailing passes. Occasionally on silicon carbide if there's a bunch of mud on the stone it might tolerate some trailing passes but I have yet to do so with reliable results.

Trailing on the strop is a given.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Hmmm... that is a feast of food for thought there, HH. You are obviously a man who takes pride and delight in the process and the control of fine movement. I can appreciate that. I can see myself totally appreciating your method, to be honest, but I find myself left with the revelation that it takes time to do it that way. What was your evolution of thought on that as you moved to the new method of shorter strokes and greater control? That's the one thing I wrestle with when considering the two sides. As you and knifenut have mentioned to me before, there is definitely a point where a sharpener needs to abandon rote movement and take more time to check the edge and understand what he is doing, why he is doing it, and what the results are and to increase the focus on control, to see, feel, and understand every artifact and burr on the edge. That was key in improving for me, I believe. Your method is the extreme expression of that philosophy. You are the anti-Richard-J.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Hmmm... that is a feast of food for thought there, HH. You are obviously a man who takes pride and delight in the process and the control of fine movement. I can appreciate that. I can see myself totally appreciating your method, to be honest, but I find myself left with the revelation that it takes time to do it that way. What was your evolution of thought on that as you moved to the new method of shorter strokes and greater control? That's the one thing I wrestle with when considering the two sides. As you and knifenut have mentioned to me before, there is definitely a point where a sharpener needs to abandon rote movement and take more time to check the edge and understand what he is doing, why he is doing it, and what the results are and to increase the focus on control, to see, feel, and understand every artifact and burr on the edge. That was key in improving for me, I believe. Your method is the extreme expression of that philosophy. You are the anti-Richard-J.

My background is in offset printing, a process that requires a number of steps be executed well to proceed to the next. There are shortcuts to be sure, but you have to understand what and why before you can choose to disregard certain aspects. I also dabble in electroplating, homebrewing and a bunch of stuff that requires a process. For me this isn't really that complicated but that doesn't mean things can't go wrong, and THE defining aspect is how well I can physically do what I need to do. I hold a much better angle working small - if I didn't have to I would probably work larger but then you loose some control and that means more metal gone anyway. So if I want the best/better results for what I'm capable of, I have to do it the way I do, or accept lesser results - I do it this way simply because it works better for me. Since I'm mostly a hobby sharpener I want to challenge myself too. Keep in mind, I'm no expert, at least not in my own opinion!

As for it taking longer, yes it takes more time to stop and inspect with frequency but overall it doesn't take any longer (for me) than using a different methodology and having to redo steps or winding up with a finished product that's not where I want it to be - I can't put metal back on the blade. I blast through my kitchen knives on the Norton econo stone or other cheap benchstone and not really worry about it - my EDU knives and any I sharpen for others are taken to a higher standard. I actually fine-tuned this method on my waterstones and can still hammer out edges very quickly using a method very close to that taught by Murray Carter. I switched to benchstones because I recognized not all waterstones work well with all steels, and they don't travel well, so applied it to my Crystalon stone first - grinds nearly as fast as waterstones, then on to India stone and lapping boards which are a bit slower but make a nicer edge.

There are so many ways to get a good edge I don't much think about it any more, mostly focus on long term maintenance and getting edges with the characteristics I like best for a given use. If I can maintain them quickly that's most important - and I can. I take my time doing the grinding and any polish work tends to speed up quite a bit. In my Econo stone video I spent over half an hour on the Norton econo stone and maybe 5 minutes or so to refine it down on a lapping board. In all my videos I'm really being leisurely about it, no hurries. Maintenance from here on out will take a few minutes a couple times a month, possibly indefinitely.

I do have a formula of sorts but it is entirely encompassed by observation - there is no other way to have control. As for Richard J, I cannot imagine he doesn't control every aspect of his operation, he's just doing it a lot faster with power tools and has applied his understanding to accommodate this.

Have fun, this is a rewarding skill!

 

[OHALLUM]

Quoted by HH: "Have fun, this is a rewarding skill!"

Therein lies the secret for me. Learning different ways and techniques is where the enjoyment is for me. Second, but just as important is improving with each sharpening job. A little sharper, or easier to get to where I want to get.

This forum is a treasure trove of information available to any who search for the knowledge available. Some good, some not so good, but all worth considering and evaluating for your (my) education in our chosen hobby. My thanks to all of you.

Omar

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I wish a moderator can merge important snippets like this into the sticky

HH, your insight is an eye opener. Thanks.

 

[speesky]

Any suggestions for that part that won't hit?

If I understand you correctly it sounds like there is a slight recurve in the cutting edge, you can either rock the blade off the edge of the stone as you sharpen, or you can continue to sharpen until you've ground away the edge on either side of the part that won't hit, thereby wearing down and removing the slight recurve.

If it's not recurved but possibly bent as in when looking directly at the spine or edge, and in your case when you say it's just the right side that doesn't hit then perhaps this means the right side would be on the inside of the curve. you could workaround this by teetering the blade off the edge as before. if you tried to wear it down till it hit though it might result in a main bevel width being greater on either sides of that 'part that won't hit' even with the same edge angle along the blade.

These are the only two things that I have found that result in a stubborn area of the blade not hitting the stone, (on a flat stone) , when its from a slight recurve I usually just grind way down the edge nearest the handle till it's good, and I bought a straight razor once that was a bit warped so it was from a bent blade, I had to rock it off the edge for that one..

Hope this helps

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Same problem here. It is ok for now, hopefully the irregularities will go away in due course.

www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthre...y-and-knives-Fan-post?p=11721474#post11721474