Defending against wild dogs

Hi folks!
First my background on dogs: Whenever there is time, I help the people here at my local animal shelter. I try to do basic obedience, walk on a leash, etc.- especially with the big dogs, some of whom one might consider "mean" (often people only tell us that they are mean to get rid of them). I also adopted two dogs (Rott-girl, sheperd-boy) from them. Although we try hard to avoid it, sometimes fairly large dogs go for each other. After taking Andy Stanfords/James Yeagers
( http://www.optionsforpersonalsecurity.com/ ) Vienna class, and hearing Yeager's recommendations
http://www.optionsforpersonalsecurity.com/articles/yeager/pepper.html , I provided our animal shelter with FOX pepperfoam (better for use in closed rooms and blinds the dog temporarily). Since that time, we had NO failure to stop a fight with OC! According to Yeager, many inferior OC products are available. So I think, besides common sense, FOX, the hottest brand of OC spray, will do the job.

Regards

Cato


PS: Every time I have been to the US, I hiked at some national parks in NC, GA and FL and visited lots of cities, and while seeing some dogs who appeared to have no owner, I have never encountered aggressive dogs- so maybe this problem is a little bit overblown?
What makes me cry is, that so many poor dogs are killed every year in US because of a throw away mentality and because people don't consider all the time&money necessary.
Maybe a better solution to the dog problem would be to try to neuter most dogs? Even people without any emotional attachments to animals should realize that killing isn't a solution. Overpopulation can only be stopped by neutering a large amount of the dog population. It was done in poor countries like Tchechia, it should be possible in a rich country like the US too..
 
I would in no way waste life.

but we are talking about being attacked by wild dogs. not attacking or slaugtering for the fun of it.

I can not speak for everyone, I would never kill an animal for NO reason 2 legged ones included. but if my life is threaten and a pack of wild dogs can be life threatening. sure it doesn't happen every day but we throwing ideas out to help prepare for that possible reality.

depending on where you live, it is more dangerous than others.

but I hear you saying prevention by neautering so they don't become too large a population, makes sense. but how do you get that info to the guy on the other side of town.
 
I agree with Chris, this thread is about attacking wild dogs (or any attacking dog).

Cato, glad to hear that you never had to deal with a dog that went for your throat. But I'm sure that if one did, preserving the life of that dog at that time would not be at the top of your "to do" list. I'm happy to hear that you take an active role in helping animals that are not fortunate to have caring owners. I can't say that I'm pro-active myself that way and I'm not sure I ever will; I have my own priorities. So more power to you! :)

But this is a good thread since ANY dog can attack if provoked properly, with or without intention. And I would welcome any sensible defensive measures. Especially measures that don't include using firearms since Canada has very restrictive laws regarding the use of handguns. Especially a 12 gauge while jogging.

Burton
 
Cato,

You make some very good points. But there are people
who either intentionally raise dogs to be vicious or
perhaps from negligence allow it to occur. This can
be especially dangerous when it occurs with some of the
more dangerous/vicious breeds or bigger breeds of dogs.

As for wild dogs, there is a difference between a dog
who is lost/homeless and one who has turned "wild".
The other danger is when dogs run in a pack, whether
they are all "wild" or not. It is almost like a bunch
of teenage boys without any supervision, eventually they
will each try to outdo the other in daring, their acts
getting progressively "wilder" each time. When a man
shows up the dogs will normally scatter like
a bunch of teenage boys caught by the principal doing
something wrong. If they run across a 6 yr. old child,
however, the results aren't always the same. Particularly
if for some reason they identify the child as prey.
If there is a "wild" or particularly vicious dog in the
pack, the actions of the pack can be very dangerous.

I admit I'm not an animal pyschologist, but believe this
is a fairly accurate description of pack mentallity. I've
seen the results of it often enough on livestock.
 
Folks, don't get me wrong. Just because I like dogs, I am not against self defense when ones life is in peril and I would definitely defend myself, my family and also my dogs against wild dog(s).

But I see a bigger problem here- that of overpopulation, which certainly can't be solved by the mass killing of dogs. Spaying/neutering is the only long term solution since a dog and her offspring can produce 67,000 dogs in six years!
I don't know why the neutering is so hard to swallow for some, since, according to USA Today, American taxpayers pay $2 billion a year to round up, house, kill and dispose of 4-6 million homeless dogs and cats. Austria is a small country and we have the luxury of proving every homeless dog with a home at the shelter til it finds a new home. That may not be possible in the huge USA, but just consider up to 6 million dogs and cats killed EVERY year! That makes me cringe...

Sincerely

Cato
 
they were great! thanks marion.

something occurs to me.....Mas Oyama used to go around the world killing horses and bulls with one punch. he made his reputation doing it. also roberto duran punched out a horse earning the nickname "Manos de piedra" hand of stone.

it seems possible one could do that to dogs.

I think a pitbull seems the hardest opponent being so low to the ground makes it difficult to get to it stably.
 
I have a couple of comments on this issue in response to some of the previous posts.

I like the golf club idea. Last summer I bought a used driver from a resale shop for 75 cents. I cut off the head and inserted a dowel into the shaft. Into the dowel I screwed a screw that I first passed through a washer. The washer at the tip of the shaft keeps it from stabbing into the dirt every time I take a step. This makes a lightweight walking stick that still has enough heft to give a dog a good swat if the need should arise. Of course, it you're carrying the stick primarily for protection against dangerous dogs that may be numerous in your area, you may want to leave the washer off of the tip so that you can use it to poke at the dog.

Something else I have done when my dog has been set upon by a pack of (domestic) dogs is to swing his leash with the heavy clip on the end over my head and flail it at the dogs. When hit, it's not enough to kill them but is enough to break their concentration on hurting my dog. If you weren't walking a dog, you could accomplish the same thing with a carabiner clipped to the end of several feet of climbing rope that is looped around your waist until it's needed. It would fit right into the hiking trail environment.

The above two suggestions are useful for repelling one or several domestic dogs that are mildly dangerous, but I think they are inadequate for truly wild dogs that are commited to doing you great bodily harm. In that situation, I think the best solutions are first, pepper spray, and second, a firearm. You'll have to decide for yourself about whether your rights to life and the pursuit of happiness are more important than obeying a law against self protection; or maybe you can just call the Park police on your cell phone to protect you. I'm sure they'll show up in time.

Concerning certain breeds of dogs being "good" or "bad", I think most people understand that, like people, there are good ones and there are bad ones. No race (or breed in this case) has a monopoly on appropriate behaviour. The two things that most often result in "bad" dogs are indiscriminate breeding and abusive treatment by the dogs owner. When a particular breed becomes very popular in a fairly short time, like rottweilers and pit bulls, unscrupulous breeders try to cash in by breeding their bitches to whichever stud is available as often as possible without regard to the temperament of either parent. This results in dogs with severe temperamental flaws that pose a danger to society. Responsible breeders select only studs and bitches with good temperaments because they want to improve the breed. Dogs from these kennels are much more likely to be kind, gentle, well-adjusted dogs.
 
I've had to kill dozens of feral dogs with a gun and one with a knife. I do NOT like it. They are often difficult to kill even with a head shot.

One dog, a female of about 50 pounds, just a curr, was coming at me hard. I put 7 FMJ .45s into her head and chest and she kept slowly coming still. Each one slowed her, but I'm glad I started when she was 30 feet away as she made it almost the entire way to where I was when she started.

I also put several 9mm rounds into several feral dogs and many of them took more than 4 to the chest and some took over a dozen as they continued toward me or across. The difficult thing was that several of these feral dogs did not fear gun fire.

I killed one with a large sharp machete. It took perhaps a dozen hard chops to the back of the neck as I was holding it up in the air by it's throat. IT was trying to bite me the entire time and had lunged for me originally. Each time I chopped into the spinal area behind the neck, I hit it with an intention to cut the dog in half. it was a chilling and long time killing that dog.

I don't ever want to kill one with a knife again. That was BAD. I have also backed down several with a screaming attack but not all.

We've had a terrible ferral dog problem here for decades. I hear that it is getting better now, as some deer hunters are putting out saucers of anti-freeze for them.

I prefer my Glock 19 with QuikShoks in the woods now and when possible, my 9 shot 12 gauge pump with buckshot, and a pocket full of reloads.
 
Sigh, can't say I can pack the same kind of hardware here in BC. I'm sure Greenpeace or some other activist group would be torching my house if I shot a dog, even in self-defence. But given the alternative, I wouldn't have a choice but to use a large knife in those situations. Man, it would just suck to kill one with a knife.

Burton
 
I've got a little bit of land in the NC foothills and a lot of people use that area to set Rover free once he gets to be too big. That little puppy looses his appeal over time. The first generation is normally ok, but once a couple of them mate the resulting dogs are not used to humans and start to revert back to wild dogs. Along with one or two packs of dogs, we have also found a rapid raccoon or two. Now I am a big knife fan and love dogs, but up there, give me a good gun! I don't want to take the chance of getting too close. If I hear them around I'll pull out a rifle but most of the time I have a .357 Ruger Blackhawk with me. The dogs I throw rocks at today is the same dog I'll have to shoot tomorrow.
 
for hiking I always take my 5.5 foot ironwood staff, and a cs bushman along with some smaller knives. In the past I have carried dexter butcher knives at about 18inches sharp and tough tey are nasty. I've been threatend by several dogs, but no packs. A Doberman was charging me once and I let loose with a snarl reminicent of a mountain lion, it dropped to its haunches turned and ran. THe other time my cousin and I were out walking my uncles wolf we were attacked by a german shepard, the shepard didn't have a a chance the wolf picked it up by the throat shook it and dropped it, it didn't get up.
 
Wolf?!?

i didn't know you could own one. do you walk a wolf like you would walk a dog? also i understand that they don't exactly make good pets. what problems do you have with a wolf that you don't with dogs and how do you deal with it?

fiddler
 
you have the most extensive experience with this subject.

you say the glock is the best tool, barring we all don't go for an evening stroll with a shotgun?

did your attacks happen mostly at night or all times of the day?

also did you find any stress after the attacks and your successful defence? when I say stress I mean, if it were a self defence against a human it is takes a few days to normality again.

Did you find the same intensity with dog attacks?

thanks

chris
 
i've metioned my uncles wolf befroeinthe wolf/Hybrid topic a few montrhs back. He was slightly larger tan a german sheperd all white, and my uncle had him from a pup till he died of old age at about 15 I miss him still he was very polite, following pack social rules. My uncle was treated as the alpha and moist of us kids were treated like pups, to be tolerated played with and protected. He enjoyed playiong with us and we walked him on a leash like a dog. The incident with the german sgeperd the sherperd ran at us and he intercepted it grabbing it by the throat, shaking it then throwing it down, we pulled him back and headed home asap.
 
flamethrower, huh?? hmmm I'd add a lightsaber to that list, then.

no seriously... I have only ever been threatened by small packs of mongrels... no bigger than the average lab and about only4 or five dogs to a pack.

These dogs aren't normally starving since they live at the edge of the residential area and probably have a regular source of scraps.

I think they were threatened because they perceived that I was entering into their territory... I have been lucky by making a lot of noise like shouting and roaring at the alpha and opening up my jacket and flaring it like a cloak making me look much bigger... it worked enough that they ran back into the bushes, while I ran the other way...

Most times they seem to be afraid if you go thru the motion of picking up a stick... go figure...

And I've heard of at least one person who kicked a dog the ribs so hard it died. Apparently this guy was walking his girlfriend's dog (some little thing on a leash) when a neighbour's alsatian (not on a leash) came charging out... guy had steel toe caps on his boots... like Dr Martens... well you can guess the rest.

But even thogh he was attacked, he was arrested for killing the dog and spent a day in jail. bummer.
 
recondoc1,

Speaking of using car antennae as weapons...

I know a guy who got into an encounter outside a bar once. The aggressor started shouting stuff and pulled a knife on him. My friend ripped off one of the car antennae around him and whipped the guy right in the eyes. The guy backed up and covered his eyes, but he didn't drop the knife, so my friend pulled his own knife and stabbed the guy right in the gut. Messed the guy up pretty bad and sent him to the hospital for a week or so.

It probably wasn't a wise decision to stab the guy after that, as my friend got into some serious legal trouble over the incident. He didn't end up going to jail, however, so I guess it was worth it considering that the other guy had a weapon drawn on him.
 
Regarding remorse after killing the deadly dogs. A little sadness after shooting the dogs in some cases. I do like dogs.

It took me years, not days to get over the one I killed with a knife. I grabbed the dog first by the throat with my left hand and drew my very large bolo machete, razor sharp and heavy with my right. At first I thought one hard as possible full arm swing into the base of the neck would instantly put it out of it's misery and stop it from trying to get MY throat. The dog was very violent even though I had it up in the air by the throat. I don't know how many times I gave it everything I had, hitting with the strength of a home run, into the spine with that heavy and sharp bolo. The knive was about three pounds, a Vietnam era bolo used for gardening and special forces. I'd guess it took a dozen, maybe two dozen smashing slashes into the spine with everything I had, every time. Finally the dog died, looking at me and still snarling. I saw that dog trying to drag my three year old son away before I caught it by the throat and of it trying to get me and of me trying to kill it and nothing happening and the dying eyes looking into mine for YEARS...

I don't like shooting to kill but the up close and personal nature of killing with a knive is BAD and I hope not to be faced with such a thing again.
 
Thanks for answering Jody!

since this thread, I have noticed alot of feral dogs around my area. one time I was doing some work in my yard and a group of 5-6 dogs of varing types were running loose in my nieghborhood. they weren't "angry" but running wild, and my college age nieghbor and his girl friend walked out to the car looking causiously at the dogs but zero defensive posturing and the guy just let his girlfriend wlak out into the street. he didn't make the worst mistake of his life but it was totally dependent on luck.

this post has deffinitely made me more aware of potential attacks.
 
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