demo feasibility

J

Jared Stenoien

Joined
Dec 4, 2005
Messages
1,025
I'm currently enrolled in a blacksmithing course at my local community college and am having some trouble with the teacher. He just taught us how to "heat treat" some chisels that we made out of spring steel. His method consists of heating the metal up until the magnet doesn't stick, then pulling it out till the magnet sticks again, and then heating it for approximately 10 more seconds and quenching it in water. When I tried to explain to him about the difference between the curie point and the temperature at which the steel transitions into martensite (not to mention the fact that steel regains it's magnetism at a much lower temperature than it loses it) he called me on it and literally said I was full of shit in front of the class. Apperantly he learned his method from "an old german blacksmith" who's been doing this for 50 odd years and so what would I know. I really could care less what this guy thinks about it, but it would be nice to show the other people in the class that he's full of bs. I was thinking I could maybe do some sort of demo where he heat treats a chisel his way, and I do it my way and then we hammer the edges together and see which cuts which. Sorry for the long post, but what do you think? Feasible?
 
My father used to teach a hospital course to new corpsmen in the navy. He would have former EMTs and pre-med students in the class. He would start by telling them that they may well know something that he doesn't, but he knew one thing that they might not know......He would be the one who decided if they passed the school or not.

Learning is why we take classes. Telling the teacher he is wrong is not how to learn. Showing him up or making a challenge will surely get you removed from the class. Even if you think he is full of BS, he probably knows more about blacksmithing than you do. Keep quiet (except for privately apologizing for the way you corrected him) and you might just learn something. Later,once you have his attention by showing your ability to learn, then you might engage him in a private discussion about HT metallurgy. Be aware that he has actually done it thousands of times and you have only read it a couple of times. There is great weight in experience. Few blacksmiths will ever know ,or care, about the curie point. They will ,however, usually know when the steel is at the right temperature and is ready to quench. Knife makers are a different breed, but learn what he has to teach you. I can't recall who said it ( one of the great genius) but the phrase was,"Even an idiot has something to teach me."
Stacy
 
Some teachers teach life lessons that are not on the course outline. They are the hardest to learn.
 
First off I actually have heat treated 3 knives so far, I realize that this is a tiny fraction of what most makers have done and I get what you guys are saying. However, with those three blades I seem to have more heat treating knowledge than this guy has had in 15 years. I mentioned quenching at 1525 for 5160 and his response was "That's an orange color! you'd be quenching it waaay too hot!" in the class we're quenching it when it's a dull red/black color. I've seen some of his work and he is most definitely an amazing art blacksmith, and I respect him for that. Rereading what I posted above you might have the impression that I was being disrespectful when I mentioned the differences between curie temp and austinizing temp, but I was actually trying very carefully to be as respectful as possible while still trying to get the information out there. His responding by telling me I'm full of shit was IMO uncalled for.
 
The lessons are that teachers don't know everything, some people are close minded and don't want to change position on something they believe. (ask Galileo and DaVinci), The important lesson is when a person like that is in position of control over you it is usually best just to go with the flow and take what is good and leave the rest behind when the situation is over. I started thinking that as I got older I was getting calmer about things like this, then I figured out I just don't give a shxt about close minded people and their misconceptions anymore.
 
Don't worry about it Jared. I've made more then a few improvised punches by heating allthread up to red and quenching in water after rough grinding to shape. The things were lower carbon, not tempered and ugly as sin but each and every one of them performed the tasks needed without failing. Sometimes all you need is a piece of steel to be a bit harder then it is to do the job. The blacksmith teacher is probably more geared towards showing how to form and treat a piece to be a functional product, not so much optimal steel structure.
 
Hey Jared...I wish I had the oportunity to take a class on Blacksmithing here.And believe me if I could I would go into the class with as open a mind as I could and leave my 15 years of knifemaking in my own shop.Remeber he is a old school blacksmith and not a modern knifemaker.You are there to learn the art of Blacksmithing and not the art of a differntially heat treated knife blade.If I was you I would see if he was open for a cup of coffe or a visit to your shop and then you could discuss your method of heat treat,but in the mean time just keep your mouth closed your eyes and ears wide open and your mind clear of all you know and soak up every bit of knowledge you can from him.

Masters teach students all they know,not to get the student to a all knowing state but to a state were they can take that knowledge and learn more on their own and surpass the master and become a master themselves.

If a man comes to my shop and wants me to teach them,I am very flattered and will help anyone out as best I can.But if that person starts questioning my techniques and telling me I am wrong,well guess what I say....Heck man you know more than me,why dont you teach me,or why dont you just go back to your shop and get busy as I have nothing I can teach you....See I am old school and self taught,I am no Rocket scientist and do not understand all the scientific talk and metalurgy talk myself (which your teacher may not,and doesnt want to be made to look dumb in front of the class) I just know the steel I use and how to make it work the best I can and the way I know best.Doing heat treat by eye takes practice and allot of it,try it,no magnets allowed! It is not easy and you will gain some respect....Remeber that in a blacksmith shop making a chisel to use around hot steel needs different heat treat than one used ewvery day say by a carpenter or carver (both work better with different heat treats) When in a Black smith shop time is money,quick made tools save money,long drawn out heat treats cost money...

It is kind of like doing the ABS tests for your JS and MS,The best advice I ever heard was from Keith Kilby...He told us once "The test is like getting a order,the customer wants things his way so that is what you do...Look at these test as a order,make the knives the way we want so we know you can do what we require to pass the test....then you can go back to your shop and make knives you and your customers want!" Look at your class in this way and you will learn allotand be able to add it to the knowledge you already have....

Let the teacher know that you didnt mean to try and make him look un-knowledgeable...Then become his best student and soak up all his knowledge become his start student,then after you have been outta the class a little while come back and discuss things with him as knowledgeable men on the same ground with the same knowledge and he wont think you are dumb....Remember he does not know what knowledge you have and has to look at you as a green student.He has years of knowledge to teach you and heat treatment is a small fraction of that,move on and keep your mouth shut ecexpt to ask questions so you can learn his way and pass the class,trust me he will save you years of self learning...

Sorry to sound hard here,but listen to experience,teachers will forget a student in the class that thinks they know it all and wont care if they teach them anything.You paid him for the class already and so he has been paid and doesnt care if you want to learn anything or not,that is your job as student rite now...He can help your carreer as a Blacksmith after class just as easy as hurt it (people listen to teachers about students)...Remeber this..Every person you meet in this craft has knowledge,listen to all and even a newby can teach a old timer a new trick,that is how you become a master...SHUT UP and LISTENand WATCH every move he makes in the forge...

OK I will get off my soap box,Sorry to sound mean and hard please dont hate me,you just have a great oportunity and I dont want to see you throw it away.

Bruce
 
I agree, learn whatever you can from the instructor and don't antagonize him !! ..When I was in gunsmithing school there was a class in heat treating. The instructor knew I was a metallurgist and told me 'You better not show up in that class ' !! I understood completely and just laughed !
 
i have had the same kind of problem. being young (im 20) its hard because teachers dont acknowledge that maybe i have been studying metalwork for a long time and could know a few things. i usually find myself helping other students, and this is when i correct the instructor, privately telling students the more correct methods. and some things that an instructor teaches seem wrong at first but hold some truth in the end. it may not be the proper way, and will bother guys like us, but it will make a fine chisel for most things. just keep a low profile, i dont take those classes for instruction, i take them for access to the equipment;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top