Deposit for a custom?

Up to now, makers had enough trust in me not to ask a deposit.

I take pride in not letting them down, so the relation of mutual trust is not broken.

Kind regards,

Jos
 
Ed - I think you have just stumbled upon collectors that may have been badly bitten by the current financial situation. I am thankful I have no knives ordered although I do have some coming from folks that have already and long ago received payment and others whom I helped out financially. I was in the position to do so then. Markets have not been kind to me so not having an obligation to pay for a knife is kind of nice right now and normally is as I seldom order knives but prefer to buy from internet or more likely at shows. Show attendance and knife purchase is a way down the list of my priorities right now although 2008 was quite unusual for both purchases and show attendance and i and Phyllis had great times visiting with so many friends -- collectors and knifemakers during this past year.
 
Ed Caffrey- your story is interesting and it struck me that we are in tumultuous times. Some of us have been touched by them, some of us have been K/O'd!

There are probably lots of people who are finding that their disposable income has suddenly vanished, people, say- like collectors. Spending money they don't have, on things they don't need. Not to be confused with investors, who are the sharks that feed on the items which are cast overboard in order to keep the ship from sinking. Buy low sell high....

There will be lots of people, people who once wouldn't bat an eyelash over dropping $1500 on a knife, say $80 000 on a vehicle, or $10 000 on a watch, who now realize they've been living a borrower's life. Living on credit. Living a little more comfortably than they are going to have to live in the immediate future. Who makes enough to ACTUALLY be able to live that way, without credit? In reality, not many.

For a person to make a financial commitment to a knifemaker to buy a knife, and back out of the deal at this point in time, things being what they are, is not only understandable, but should- in my opinion- be expected. It's not a good thing for anyone, but a knifemaker shouldn't get too hot under the collar. Not too hot to stop being able to figure out how to put food on the table themselves. But knifemakers are crafty buggers...especially the really good ones:D.

If anything, knifemakers could gain leverage in a situation such as this, and if you, as a customer, don't want to pay their deposit- or the full amount for a custom design- then I'll bet that you won't be getting many new knives in the future.

I would always give the maker the benefit of trust. Like I said, one should do one's research, especially when a hefty chunk of cash is involved. If I didn't trust a knifemaker, I wouldn't buy a knife from them. I don't have stars in my eyes. Well, maybe a little. But those stars are earned dammit:).
 
Got up early to go deer hunting with my boys (men now) and its pouring down rain. Maybe this afternoon. Heck, I'm up now.

We haven't been hit quite as hard as Ed has, but it does and has happed. The last time this topic was brought up we had just had three in the last month and a half. It seems to run in spells sometimes. The worst situation was a guy in Texas (no reflection on the state, its full of great people) that kept saying over and over that he was sending the check. We had busted our hump getting his knife ready in time for a hunt; beat the deadline by three weeks and no check. He strung us on for close to three months. Luckily the guy had great tastes in knives and we didn't have it a week after deciding to sell it somewhere else.

Things happen to all of us that can change our ability to live up to our obligations. The customers that let us know that they won't be able to take delivery of a knife, for what ever reason, are still in good standing with us. The customers that make us try to contact them over and over, never respond and make us utilize the 30 day waiting period prior to us selling the knife to someone else will have a difficult time placing another order. Bad things happen to good people all the time. That is no reason to not be honorable and let people know that you aren't going to be able to complete the transaction and give the person on the other end the option to make the best of the situation. That goes both ways for the maker and the buyer.
 
If your going to pay a deposit it depends on the maker and what he requires. Everybody is different. All I suggest is make sure who ever your dealing with has a reputable reputation and you know other people who have delt with them. If you pay 10 to 100% of the cost what it really comes down to is money. If the maker doesn't deliver then your out. I've paid 100% deposit but I knew the maker was reputable and I got everything and more than I expected. In any transaction there could be bumps in the road. You also have to factor in that the maker could run into problems and understand and be patient. Good luck !
 
I have been asked for a deposit only three times in more than 10 years of knife collecting. Two as a first time buyer from a maker and once from a sheathmaker. I only had trouble with the sheathmaker and with some effort I did get my money back. As a repeat customer of both knifemakers, I was not asked for a deposit on later orders.

I agree with just about everything that has been previously posted. I especially agree, though, to date, it has no applicability to my circumstances, that requiring full payment for expensive, unusual materials is not unreasonable.

Paul
 
I don't do the deposit thing. I also don't do loads of gold and gems on my knives. I have paid the cost up front for an expensive piece of ivory that the maker sourced particularly for my knife.

Roger
 
This is a subject that has recently hit home with me, and I am currently struggling with an answer.

I have never taken deposits, however, due to some recent events, I am considering it. In the month of October, I had 4 knives scheduled for delivery, two knives each, from two different clients. Two of the four knives were completed, and then within two days of each other, I get emails from each of the clients, stating that they were canceling their orders. No explanations, no "sorrys", just "cancel my order". When I emailed I got no response from either, and after leaving a couple of messages for each, got no return calls.
That pretty much represented my income for the month of October...I'm not whining, just stating facts. My thought is that had I required a deposit, whatever the amount, it might have made the individuals stick to the deal. I can assure you that if either of those individual every place an order with me again, I will require full payment in advance.

I'm mulling it over.....November is usually when I do a full update on my website, and make any policy changes. My thought right now is that I will still take orders without a deposit, but prior to starting the knife, I will require some type of deposit (not sure exactly what yet). I have always trusted everyone, and not taken deposits, but being "messed over" like that, it makes me believe that the Maker needs a bit of leverage to ensure they don't get taken for a ride. Of course all the knives will still come with a money back policy of satisfaction, but hopefully a deposit of some type will help the client stick to the deal.

Considering the times, the cancellations are not that surprising. But not calling you and explaining the situation and offering apologies. Or perhaps trying to work out something? That's just wrong.
Just shake it off Ed and be thankful for ALL your good customers that would never do you that way.

In regard to the general question; I never give deposits unless there's extenuating circumstances such as has been mentioned.
 
I always ask makers to let me know when they are about to start my knife so that I can send payment in full. That way, when the knife is ready to ship, the maker has been paid and there are no delays.

I find this to be one of the most poorly thought out strategies to custom knife acquisition that I have read, if I am understanding it correctly, Keith.

Due to the low amount of pieces that you have, and the immense trust you have for the makers that you DO deal with, this may work for you.....

However, when you are dealing with a vast number of makers across the spectrum for custom knives(say around 10 or more/year) it makes NO sense to "prepay" until you are informed the knife/sheath is finished, and ready to ship....THAT way, "delays" or "life happening" is kept to a minimum.

I have sent monies within the last 5 years upon being informed that the knife was "just about done" and have waited past that point from 1-3 months, which is not acceptable to me....how about you?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I would never ask for payment in full, until the knife is finished and ready to ship. If the collector/buyer is someone I know or have done business with in the past, I typically call or e-mail them to let them know the knife is ready. If they tell me they will be putting a check in the mail right away, I will normally ship the knife that or the next day. They usually get the knife the same day or sometimes (because I ship everything Priority Mail) a day before I get the payment. If I have not done business with the collector/buyer before, I will typically ship the day I receive final payment.
It again all comes down to integrity and a relationship built on trust.
 
I typically call or e-mail them to let them know the knife is ready. If they tell me they will be putting a check in the mail right away, I will normally ship the knife that or the next day. They usually get the knife the same day or sometimes (because I ship everything Priority Mail) a day before I get the payment. If I have not done business with the collector/buyer before, I will typically ship the day I receive final payment.
It again all comes down to integrity and a relationship built on trust.

Just about a textbook way to do it, Steve.....

In the above post, I was pretty much referring to a situation where there is almost no relationship between maker and collector other than a business one initiated by the collector.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
We don't want payment until the knife is ready and have notified the customer that the knife is complete. We have never had a customer that has expected us to mail a knife prior to the check clearing the bank. While we have sent a knife or two out prior to getting payment, that is only under special circumstances with known customers. There have been too many instances of "the check is in the mail" and a month or two later we are still holding a knife.

The only real problem we have had with our policy is there are a few customers that want to go ahead and send the money when they order the knife. They didn't think that they were buying an earlier delivery or expect any consideration on our part, they just wanted to go ahead and pay. We have returned checks because we didn't want to hold it until the knife was ready. While our partnership makes it a little more likely that if something happened to one of us the customer would still get his knife, we decided early on that we did not want the obligation of a prepayment hanging over our head.

It has worked for us, our customers have not complained, and we will accept the occasional knife the customer doesn't want when it is complete until a better way comes along.
 
Since a sheath maker has been mentioned, and since I am a maker by the most loose definition, I guess I can contribute my two cents.

I do not ask for nor do I want any advance payment in any amount or percent. I enclose an invoice with the item/items and once you actually have my work in your hands and are satisfied, THEN you owe me the amount of the invoice. Some sheaths do require some extra expense for materials and that is reflected on the aforementioned invoice, but I front the money for that myself. Every sheath I make could be termed a one of a kind and the likely chance I could sell it to another customer is dim, EXCEPT that there is a knife out there to fit every sheath that was ever made and sooner or later my orphan sheaths (which are few and far between) find a mate.

I have either been unusually lucky....... or the knife community truely is filled with pretty great people like we all think.

Paul
 
As a part time maker I don't require a deposit, but do like to have payment in hand before shipping if it is a customer who is new to me. I have been in situations where a custom order was placed for which I had to order special material, only to have the order canceled as I was about to start. This of course is frustrating, but not so much that it has caused me to request deposits.
 
I make furniture, and most of the other makers I know require a hefty deposit (around 50%.) I regularly see fellow makers abuse the system. I have also come across my fair share of jaded customers who have lost their deposits due to a maker's injury, bankruptcy, or death.

I don't require a deposit. I have dealt with a handful of customers over the years who either didn't have the money when it came time to pay, or simply up and left town. Since I make custom pieces, I was left with furniture that was designed for a specific use and might not be worth the same amount to another customer.

A couple of years ago I started putting potential customers on a call list. A month before I plan to start building their furniture, I give them a call to let them know and make sure they still want some of my work. I give them a specific deadline that my work will be finished and ask them to sign a work order. It keeps me honest on my timeline, and I then have a written intent to pay in case something goes wrong on their end.

I don't know if this would be useful in the knife world. The average knife maker produces a lot more pieces than I do over the same time period, so perhaps the calling and paperwork would just bog down production too much. Issues with collecting funds that originate out of state would also be a problem. Just my two cents.

I would also like to add that I am always shocked when I see someone order a knife that is due at some future date without already having set the necessary funds aside. It is dishonorable in my opinion, even if the customer really intends to have the money in the future.
 
We, Aki and I, have been making tools and knives full time for 12 years. We require 40% down. It has never been an issue, in fact a lot of customers volunteer full payment. Somehow they know us and couldn't be bothered dicking around. They want the product. It still is mind boggling though when a person we don't know, emailed once with a price drops 1000 into our paypal account.
Of course you give a guarantee, timeline and updates....customer service.

I don't know of any other business where you could have a job done on spec.
The only way I can see anybody making full time custom anything and not asking for a deposit is if you've got money somewhere else.

After we've established a business relationship maybe then we wouldn't ask for a deposit. When I've fired up the forge I let the customer know and usually without having to ask the full funds are in the mail.

Scott
 
I have sent monies within the last 5 years upon being informed that the knife was "just about done" and have waited past that point from 1-3 months, which is not acceptable to me....how about you?

Nope, it has worked out well for me every time.
 
I will go on record with I never give a Deposit. Like some I tried this years ago (twice) and in neither case did it work out well.

There are some occupations where a Deposit may be required but if you are in business to produce a product then you should not require a customer to pay for your materials up front, or your time.

Now, if you are a Maker and you recieve an order for a 15" Dagger with Platinum guard and couples in flagrante dilecto etched on the side I think you better pass.... :D
 
Nope, it has worked out well for me every time.

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear...of course it has worked out well for you...every time is less than 10 times, right?

The question I was asking is....would you find it acceptable to have paid in full and wait an additional 3 months for your product to be delivered, when you were told it was "just about finished"?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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