Deposit on knife orders

G

Gib Guignard

Joined
Jul 8, 2001
Messages
849
How many makers require a deposit before starting a knife that some one has commissioned? I have a knife that is finished that a collector(?) commissioned that I can't get him to pay for. He supposedly has several knives from Blade Forum members. All I get is excuses and never the same one twice. What do you do with a guy like this? The only reason that I built the knife without a deposit is that I can sell it.
Gib
 
I made a knife one time for someone and put a stainless steel blade. He decided it was not for him. He said he did not want damascus steel when he was asking me to make it. I asumed he meant he wanted stainless. When finished he said he meant he wanted carbon steel.

I did not persue it just learned from it. Be specific. I never take a deposit because then I have a job that has to be done. If the buyer backs out I have a knife for me. Unless the order is a particularly ugly knife I'm sure you will sell it eventually.

Lets not get confused here I got burned once sending a knife before I got paid
I will not do that again.
 
So far I haven't been burned with someone not wanting to pay. I usually but not always ask for a 50% deposit, most people have no problems with this.

I send an email detailing everything about the knife that they want and have them send me an email back agreeing to the knife as outlined. That way I have record that we both agreed on what I am going to make for them. If it is something unique or I am adding it into an already busy schedule I ask for the deposit. Some people you just have a feeling that they are going to pay (or at least I do until I get burned) and I don't charge them a deposit but let them know that I am waving it for them.

If I was in your circumstance I would give him until a certain date, to either pay you in full or pay a portion of the knife (maybe he needs a payment plan if you're into that) otherwise I'd sell it after that date.

Anyhow sorry to hear about your bad luck on this one. Hope it works out for you.

Sean
 
Gib im with the guy's here i will make Anything that a customer want's but , i require 1/2 the agreed price as a deposit . only about 1 in 10 customer's have said anything about it ,i usually tell them it is to cover material's . i look at it this way if they have a problem with sending a deposit they will probably have a bigger problem with sending me the full amount when the knife is finished . :)
 
The practice of asking 50% up front and 50% on completion for all types of work is something that goes back thousands of years. It shows good faith on the part of the customer and provides money to buy materials for the worker. Certainly for custom work it's not unreasonable. Of course all negotiations should be presented honestly and in full detail from the start.
 
From a collector's standpoint, two things. First, I have never paid any large deposit, and I wouldn't accept to. I have paid $200 deposits on Howard Clark's tanto and swords, but given the final cost, those represent small amounts. I have heard many a bad story about knifemakers going dark with someone's money. Some makers I know told me that part of the motivation to complete a piece - when the going gets tough and the inspiration might not be there - is to get paid, and that it goes away if the money has been paid beforehand. Second, if I do pay a significant deposit, I want to know exactly when the knife will be delivered. Since part of the cost is how much "float" I give away, I want to be able to know exactly what this is going to be.
 
Gib, yep, do this grinding long enough without a deposit, and you may get burned. I've been burned several times, even though I don't require a deposit. Most of my customers offer a deposit, and I accept it. The persons that have burned me never offered a deposit. It's a hard thing to diecide whether to ask for a deposit or not, but the deposit certainly has it's merits. I bought some materials for a religious/ethnic knife a while back and didn't receive a deposit from the customer. The fellow got laid off his job, and I can understand why he now cannot afford the knife. These were due to circumstances somewhat beyond his control, but I still have the short end of the stick. A deposit would have at least covered most of the material cost. I intend on finishing the knife, but it is on a back burner due to some cashflow knives to build. Sounds fair to me, and when the fellow calls someday, we will still be on good terms and his cash will get him the knife. Cash, ain't it grand?
 
Joss, From a makers standpoint I am tired of getting a order and then the buyer giving me the old song and dance, blame every one els for the reason thy haven't paid. This has happened to me more than you think. I have not received any communication at all from him, a email would be nice saying I have a problem will have your money on at a certain time, all the contact has been started by me.
This person is giving honest collectors a bad name and he is not the first.
After I have done business with a buyer and know him I don't even ask for a deposit. Gib
 
I'm kind of like Reg concerning this. I never ask for deposit unless the customer wants something outrageous that I'm sure will be difficult to sell if he backs out. As always, the knife never leaves my shop unless paid in full.
 
My thoughts on this are -- If it is a design of the customers and not my usual style or materials I do want a deposit and I consider this non-refundable. The deposit covers material and labor. However if it is a knife typical of my usual style and has materials in it that will not create a problem in my selling it to another customer I do not take and do not like a deposit. It seems that when a deposit is accepted the customer expects more from the maker and I do not really like to have my feet held to the fire if I decide to go fishing or
whatever. I make knives for fun and don't want it to turn into work.
 
I have made some for local fellows that I know and don't ask for a deposit from them unless I am short on material funds. All the internet orders I require deposit.

I am relatively new and so far have not been burned. Just a matter of time I suppose.

RL
 
I've always required a 20% deposit from anyone for their first knife. After the first knife is delivered, I don't ask for a deposit on the second or succeeding knives. At that point, the buyers and I are friends, and they trust my work. I trust their ability and willingness to pay from that point on.

The 20% deposit is not refundable. If the buyer doesn't accept the knife, I keep the deposit. This has only happened twice that I remember. One man went bankrupt and didn't have the money to buy the knife, the other decided he didn't like it after it was finished.

Nearly everyone I deal with uses email, so I keep the buyer informed of progress, and send him pictures as the knife progresses to the finished state; then another email with pictures of the finished knife, and asking for the final amount due including shipping costs. I ship the knife on receipt of the final payment.

All the emails and pictures of work in progress make an unimpeachable record of the origin of the knife, along with all commitments and agreements between the buyer and maker.

When I accept a knife commission, I give the buyer a set delivery date which will be the latest date the knife will be ready to ship. I have never ever been late, and usually beat the delivery date by a few weeks.

Getting the knife made on time is always on my mind. Everything else comes second.

If a knifemaker makes a commitment, he should always honor it, even if something else has to slide a little. If you don't do this, people won't trust you again. :(
 
Severtecher, The reasion that it is not on the avabiale page is that it may go to Chuck and then it will go from a $400 knife to a $800 or more knife. It is FK001.
Thanks for all your input on this, I feel that a bonified collector is a person to be trusted, his word is his bond as well as a knife makers. Gib
 
I don't work with the expensive materials and stuff that most of you do so I guess my situation is different. I don't ask for a deposit though, at least I haven't yet.
I try to keep micarta in a few different colors, as well as picking up nice wood whenever the local woodcraft has it (rosewood, cocobolo etc.) A few peices of brass and plenty of steel on hand. Basically, enough to make anything that follows my usual style without having to go looking for materials.
As long as they're willing to have the knife made with what I have on hand, and its something I think I can sell if they back out, I don't require a deposit. If I have to start making special orders and stuff for them thats going to add up shipping costs I wouldn't normally have and leave me with a lot of money invested in the knife then I would probably want a deposit.
 
I've purchased a number of knives from several makers and have never been asked for a deposit. I generally don't expect to provide one. At any one point in time I have a number of ourders outstanding for custom knives. I consider it my responsibility to have the funds ready to go when the knife is completed. To that end, I ask the makers to give me a "heads up" when they start working on the knife. At that point, one has a better estimate of delivery time as well. As with so many relationships in life, communication is key. If maker and customer stay in somewhat regular contact, then there are fewer "surprises" on either side.

A couple of random thoughts on the percentage of the deposit and the cost of the knife. I've got to say - 50% seems really steep to me. If we're talking about a $200 knife, then does the maker really require half up front to cover his exposure (assuming we're not talking about a customer-designed, ugly-as-sin, never-be-able-re-sell type of knife)?. If we're talking about an $1,800 damascus / walrus ivory bowie, is it really reasonable to expect $900 of my dollars up front? Particularly if that knife isn't going to be delivered for a year or two (or five)? Are you going to refund the interest on that money over that time?

I have had occasion to provide funds in advance to cover the cost of materials. It involved a (surprise) damscus / ivory bowie. The maker contacted me when the blade had been fully forged out and finished. The handle was to be a big honkin' chunk of mammoth ivory, and the fittings were to be gold-inlayed. I had not the slightest hesitation in advancing funds to cover the cost of these pricey items, but then, this was done about a month in advance of the expected delivery, not a year and a half earlier when the knife was ordered.

Okay, I'm definitely rambling now, so I'll stop.

Bottom line - if you're going to ask for a deposit at all, I suggest it might be more reasonable, and better-received, to ask for a smaller percentage, and ask for it closer to delivery than right at the very outset.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Roger, It is refreshing to hear a honest collectors comment. I had agreed on a 25% deposit on this knife and it did not come in a week and the knife was finished in a month which was the time frame I told him it would be done. You may be right in that a 50% deposit is a lot, but some of that has to do with cash flow. If I can stay busy more of the year 25% may be enough but if I know a person I don't need a deposit. Gib
 
I'll echo RogerP's comments, especially that full and frequent communication is key. While I am not in the same league of "collector" as Roger and others are, I feel that I should be treated as such when I order a knife. Two examples of makers that I have dealt with very favorably are Terry Primos and Craig Camerer. Both communicated with me at all stages of the knife, from it's inception as an idea, to it's ultimate specifics on steel, fittings and handle material, to it's timing for construction and delivery. As a result, I have multiple knives from these makers and plan on more in the future. An example of a situation that I backed out of involved a known and respected maker and a knife that was a regular offering/style that didn't incorporate any fancy or hard to find materials. I ultimately backed out because I didn't want to pay 50% up front even though I REALLY wanted the knife. A third example of how it all goes wrong involved yet another well known maker that I purchased a knife from. Like an idiot, I paid in full for it and while ultimately getting the knife I wanted, had to wait for over twice the stated delivery time with many instances of poor to no communication and outright lies. As a result, I don't feel "warm and fuzzy" about this knife and gently beat the crap out of it. I did plan at one time on purchasing multiple knives from this last maker, but because of this one bad experience, would never deal with him ever again. I do know that I am not the only person who has had problems with this particular maker, and I think his reputation has suffered because of it.
I think that every knife ordered is a distinct entity, and if the situation requires, I would be open to a deposit. But as a whole, I usually do not enter into this situation if it "required and non-negotiable". I think it helps if you can meet the maker in person or can at least talk to them on the phone. Much better impressions are made than through emails. But... once things are going, frequent emails are almost an essential.
Yep, now I'm starting to ramble...
Mongo
 
Mongo, I think you're every bit as enthusiastic about the craft as anyone else, which puts us all precisely in the same "league". :D ;)

Roger
 
Here's my take on it Gib. Since I don't sell knives I can't speak to that commodity but I sell or have sold darn near everything else.

When I get an order for something that is to be made for that customer, I get a deposit. Perid....50% no dickering unless I do business with him(her) a lot. I've gotten stiffed way too many times.

If the item is a high dollar item and really can't be sold to anyone else, I get 1/3 up front, 1/3 on inspection at some predetermined point, and the balance on delivery,

This is another area where the love of knife making loses some of it's charm. It's now a business. The approach I take is to explain it completely to the customer. He needs to feel comfortable with the idea. He has researched me enough to know he wants ME to do this and it's only fair that he have enough confidence to make a deposit.
Hard rules have to be enforced with a friendly smile but...they have to be enforced.

It's a shame we can no longer do things with a handshake, but we can't.

About 30 years ago I ran out of gas in a strange city and had left my wallet in the motel. I went to the only station around and explained the problem, offered to leave my watch and drivers license for $5.00 worth of gas. He laughed and told me to keep the watch and license. It was worth $5.00 just to see if I came back. (Before anyone asks, yes I did come back, filled up and gave him a $10.00 tip)

Anyway, try that now...this isn't the same world! :grumpy:

Remember Gib. Those sharp things I keep seeing you make are not knives. They are truly works of art and you should not be expected to be less secure than any other artist. Want your portrait painted. See if the artist doesn't ask for a healthy deposit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top